Hi Joey, interesting views, I take it you have read some of the classic arguments against them or even some of the more modern ones?
God blamed satan?
by Joey Jo-Jo 17 Replies latest watchtower bible
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still thinking
Lars...what a fabulous post..
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the-illuminator81
Satan made me do it!
Eve made me do it!
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Joey Jo-Jo
PS: I read a lot of books and found some really interesting finds but lack evidence, ill try and stick with what makes most sense.
In John 18:2-9
2 Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples. 3 So Judas came to the garden, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and the Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. 4 Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” 5 “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6 When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 Again he asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they said. 8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” 9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.” [ a
Again no kiss is mentioned, the "cue" is from this same book of John, involving Judas who is then not required when jesus steps forward
For this to make some sense, jesus never referred to the father by YHWH, people who believe in the trinity say that its because they are both YHWH, maybe satan is also YHWH? maybe satan is YHWH bad side? According to the catholic encyclopaedia vol II 1907 explains that it was taught by the early church and is part of early theology that jesus was a ransom paid to the devil, not man. Then, there were two theologians Anselm of Canterbury (1033AD) and Peter Abelard(1079-1142AD), they explained how Jesus was not a ramson for satan but god had the death of his own son as blood sacrifice to appease Himself, the salvation story was re-written in the twelfth century inline with Anselm and Peter theology.
It's also interesting to know that the story of King of Tyre parallels with satan. Ez 28:12-19
12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl. [ a ]
Your settings and mountings [ b ] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”How does when Jesus is preaching about unconditional love make any sense to the evil traits of YHWH?
John 14:10 - Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Sorry Jesus but I find that hard to believe, something is missing here, but earlier jesus said John 8:44 - You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
So our father can be the devil??
Why is this all so hard to reconcile? why is it that when people let the bible speak itself people draw different understandings and conclusions?
The bible did not fall from the sky and its not flawless, Constantine decided what went in the canon, but there were many books in circulation that didn't form part of the canon, according to history records this man was no saint and his decisions were politically motivated, if this was a puzzle we are missing many jigsaws, but I find it ironic that Jesus either if he is a real man, the messiah or just fictional created freedom from human dominance, the freedom that christians have today that the Moses tribe didn't, the orthodox church tried to inslave man but failed.
But one thing I am very certain of, If God wants to communicate with us He's doing a very poor job.
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NomadSoul
What if God is Satan, and Satan is really God and we all been deceived?
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PSacramento
Lets remember that, according to the OT, Satan makes his first OFFICAL appearance in the book of Job and it is clear that he is NOt God's rival or adversary but OURS.
Satan being a created being KNOWS he is inferiour to God and his "job" ( one he has taken upon himslef) is to be our adversary, to show our unworthiness before God.
Satan doesn't do anything per say, he manipulates US to show our darkside and act upon it ( father of lies and whatnot).
Everything a human betrays his trueself, Satan gives God an imperious " See, Told you so".
It seems to me that you are having issues with the evil and lack of morals that you preceive in the OT writings about God, yes?
May I suggest " Is God a moral monster" from Paul Coplan ?
It gives an interesting perspective on what seems to be God's lack of morals in the OT.
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Joey Jo-Jo
that book should be interesting, i would like to know how it justifies gods killing of jobs family just to prove satan up in heaven wrong, i dont know if your aware ofsome scholars prefer translation into its literal sense the adversary in the book of job
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PSacramento
Actually, it doesn't mention Job at all, probably because most scholars view the Job story as just that, a story to illustrate a point.
It mentions the Sacrfice of Issac, the Cannanit "genocide", the "barbaric laws" of the OT and so forth.
I didn't always agree with all his premisses but they were very thought provoaking.