Thank you, again, dear AWEN... and the greatest of love and peace to you! I have spent the past couple hours or so trying to decide whether I should respond to dear BOTR's (peace to you, as well!) last post. Apparently, I must... NOT to be right, but because her comments literally call for it. Of course, you've responded MUCH better and more concisely than I ever could (thank you for substituting for dear Tec, whom many of us are beginning to miss, so I hope she gets back, soon!)... but I have to make a "reply" for myself when another demands of me a reason for my faith. Even if no one here is watching... others are. So, it is not just to dear BOTR that I reply... but to our Challenger... so that HE will get behind me. With that said:
Greetings, dear BOTR, and, again, peace to you (truly; REALLY). Please note that this is a bit of a long post… because I feel like it’s time for you and I to go one way… or perhaps another. Either draw closer… or agree to disagree and part ways. Please know that my caps are not shouts… but just a fast way for me to emphasize without having to press too many keys... because I truly want you to GET it. I think perhaps you are moving toward understanding that, but just to be sure...
Circumcision for an adult male is a travesty of all their beliefs
Some males, perhaps. Apparently, not for Jews, Jewish converts… or even Muslims (then and now).
Sexism was much greater in that period.
Okay… but that’s not really the topic of this discussion.
NonJews were welcome in synagogues as god fearers and studied Hebrew scripture with rabbis.
Yes, but had to be ceremonial cleansed, including circumcision, first. C’mon… Timothy was a Jew, by means of having a Jewish mother. Because his father was GREEK, however, Paul wouldn’t even take him into the temple… without first having him circumcised.
Full Jews are circumcised.
As are Jewish proselytes (converts). That’s how a Jew (or one who went “with” them was identified). Think Timothy (who wasn’t a “full” Jew). C’mon, BOTR… THINK.
The pain it causes infants has led a movement to stop infant circumcision for secular reasons.
No one’s denying that it’s painful. Apparently some, many… were/are willing to undergo such pain… in spite of what some believe about it secularly… for their beliefs. Even today.
Any health benefits are minimal compared to the infliction of pain, the occasoinal slip.
Ummmm… wasn’t under the impression that the pros/cons of circumcision was the issue here, but…
If the Holy Spirit directs A Guest, I submit the Holy Sprit directs every human on the planet. It is freely given.
Apparently, excluding as to me, if what you’ve insinuated previously is to be taken seriously. Which is a contradiction of what you just stated. But you quite often contradict yourself, dear BOTR. Really.
Schizoprhenics and extreme bipolar cases tend to cling to the belief.
You know, I don’t suffer from either of these conditions, but if you ask me, I would say you just insulted a whole of people who do (as so MANY here feel free to do, for some reason). ‘Cause some who so suffer also cling to other beliefs… many of which have absolutely nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. Even God. I mean, not all schizophrenics or extreme bipolar sufferers even believe in God… let alone the Holy Spirit. Let alone consider themselves “christian.” Perhaps you… and others… believe that schizophrenia and bipolar disorder… is CAUSED by… belief in God. Which means, NO aetheist or non-believer suffers from either disorder. Right? Sigh. Your insinuation… like that of so many others… that one who DOES believe in the Holy Spirit… and his direction… IS such a sufferer… is absurd.
What’s even more off the wall, though, is YOUR assertion, above, that the Holy Spirit directs every human on the planet. Seriously? I don’t think our dear atheist friends here would agree with you on that. Nor would some of the other non-believers. Not even those who consider themselves “christian” would buy that… especially when it comes to people like, for example, Cain, Hitler, Ted Bundy, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, heck, girl, Judas Iscariot. Wasn’t the Holy Spirit “directing” him.
Any gibberish that I write I could claim Holy Spirit.
Actually, no, you couldn’t. Why? Because you know that do so… without it being TRUE … is blasphemy AGAINST that Spirit. Which is what keeps you from DOING it. On the other hand, if that Spirit WAS speaking to and directing you… you could NOT claim it was doing so… OR take credit for him doing so… because THAT would be blasphemy against him, as well! And you just don’t have either IN you to do… yet.
Problem is, though, that some get so mad at ME… because I DO make that claim (which I do TRUTHFULLY)… that they allow such anger… and jealousy… cause THEM… to “sin”… with their lips (well, here, their fingers). Such utter chagrin that I have the AUDACITY to say what I do SO moves them… and they’re off and before they even know it… OOPS!... what was truly IN them (jealousy, anger, hate)… comes OUT. They start calling MY Lord a demon… if not worse. So that out of what’s actually already in THEIR hearts… they speak!
And if you don’t get a mastery over YOUR anger… you may find yourself doing the exact same thing. Because what do YOU care what I claim my “source” is, truly? If what I share is TRUE … and you only need to do more of your beloved “research” to know that it IS… how I know that it’s true should be irrelevant.
Church in the classic sense involves community.
And that’s where your understanding falls down: you are SO concerned with what you learned “academically”… that everything must come back to the “classical”… or “standard”… or “accepted”… understanding. However, the ORIGINAL word, from we modernly get the word “church”… which derives from the GREEK word “ekklesia”… means an ASSEMBLY of people… who are first GATHERED… OUT… by being CALLED… BY NAME… by the one ASSEMBLING them.
Does that involve “community”? In the sense that these “commune”, yes. But with WHOM do they “commune”? Solely each other? No. With the One who CALLED, GATHERED, and ASSEMBLED them. Because that One is the COMMON link. By means of COMMUNING with HIM… they learn to COMMUNE with one another. NOT the other way around.
Paul acknowledge speaking in tongues as a gfit of the spirit but then went on to describe what a menaingless gift it was compared to the other gifts.
Yes, and ONE of those “other” gifts… is hearing spirits. Another is prophesying. One can only prophesy… rightfully… however, by MEANS of the outpouring… and receipt… OF holy spirit. Which GRANTS such gifts… and ability TO prophesy. Right? Yet, what kind of person would receive… and USE such gifts… and then give the credit to THEMSELVES? Or DENY what they hear/see/know/share… BECAUSE of such gifts… AND the One who GRANTED them? We know what “kind” of person… and I am not of that “kind.”
If I said to you, “I, myself, SA, know these things… because, well, I’m an uber-scholar and researcher,” you would say, “Oh, ooh! SA! TELL us, please! What do YOU know of these things?!” But because I say to you that I know them because of the One who gives to me… the One who said HE receives them from HIS Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel… you intimate that I am “schizophrenic” or possibly “extremely bipolar.” Others go so far as to say I have a “demon”… and I don’t see you being too far off from that, yourself.
Billions of people, everyone adamant that their view is correct.
I am not. Because it is not MY view – I can’t see any more than YOU can… without “eyesalve.” Which I ask for… BEFORE I tell you what I “see”… and so receive. I USED to think that “I” saw; I found out that I didn’t. Not a THING. I, too, was blind. Now that I CAN “see”… however, I would be a FOOL to go around saying that it was of my own doing, when I know… FOR A FACT … Who it was that opened MY eyes. That you can’t BEAR that truth… is on you. JUST like it was on the Pharisees and others who couldn’t bear it when another man professed who opened HIS eyes.
A cacophony of Babel. Why have scriptures or creeds?
Ummmm… lack of FAITH? Inability to WALK by FAITH (vs. by SIGHT)?
Jesus needed no earthly ministry if Holy Spirit directs everyone with no background in a helter skelter way.
Wha…? Sigh. My Lord came… to show the way: him, the Holy Spirit. HE is the Way. So, we follow HIM… go THROUGH him.
Helter skelter is a direct reference to Manson. As a dedicated Beatles fan, I heard Helter Skleter with hundreds of millions of fnas. Only Charlie Manson heard the correct Helter Skelter. He did not interview John or Paul, let alone Ringo and Geroge. Not even George Martin or the wives.
Sorry, but truly don’t get what you’re on about, here. Didn’t read the book; didn’t watch the movie. No reason to. Nothing to do with me or my Lord/his Body… but THIS world and what goes on it sometimes (often).
A true conduit of the Holy Spirit shows humility.
The ONLY “conduit” of holy spirit IS the Holy Spirit… Christ. And HE always showed humility… even to his death. Certain VESSELS of that spirit, however, OFTEN showed it… but certainly not always. David was absolutely a vessel of that Spirit – hence, the Psalms that came OUT of him. Yet… he killed tons of people, committed adultery, even had a man murdered. Then he ignored that Spirit and took a census. Paul was a conduit… yet earlier on he taught in exact opposition to Christ (heck, according to HIM, you and I couldn’t even be having this discussion!). Peter was a conduit… yet he demonstrated hypocrisy.
I do not claim that my “discipline” has been fully worked out. I am yet a work in progress, as are ALL of the members of the Body of Christ… because we are not PERFECTED… until we put off the flesh. So, if anyone tells you that they are “humble”… ALWAYS… they’re lying to you. I ask my Lord to forgive ME… everyday. Because EVERY day… I err… in some way or another. Which is why I eat his flesh and drink his blood… EVERY day: to cleanse… and sustain… MY spirit. Which it needs EVERY day. Not once a month or once a year. I know what I am, BOTR. Do YOU know what YOU are?
An internet forum is insubstantial.
Yet, here we are. I don’t know why YOU are here, but I know why I am…
Where is the grand ministry that changes the world and church? We know nothing of your works.
First, does it really take that, BOTR? Really. Second, regarding my “works”… YOU know nothing of them… because I don’t go blowing a “horn” ahead of me. Nor do I ask anyone blow one behind me. WhatEVER “ministry” I have done… whatever changes it accomplished… and IN whoever… is nothing more than I OUGHT to have done. I don’t need the world to acknowledge me. Heck, I don’t even need YOU to acknowledge me. Neither YOU… nor the WORLD… are who I look to to say to ME: “ WELL done, good and faithful servant!”
Your content is incomprehensible.
To you, perhaps. Funny, though, isn’t… with all of your education? Because I do post plainly… and clearly. Such that folks who DON ’T have law degrees (which excludes practically everyone here but you and I) seem to comprehend it. Perhaps the problem is that it really is just a bit too “elementary” for you. No worries – your “high” mind will get you there, I’m sure.
Yes, iti is the GB. Someone in Somalia, Sudan, Iraq- akin to the Sojourners- imitating Christ, command respect and attention.
I’ve commanded nothing. From you or anyone else. Certainly not respect (which folks here don’t just give away anyway - surely, you’ve seen THAT!). Look, you absolutely don’t have to agree with me… or even read what I post. You, however, are commanding that I and others agree with YOU… because, well, you’ve “read Crossan” and, therefore, MUST know… because surely HE knows. Okay…
I am not creative.
Nor are you or anyone else required be, as far as I know…
Yet I could hobble together posts as my fantasies and claim the Holy Spirit.
Okay, perhaps you could. Again, I don’t think so because, again, if you COULD… YOU would. JUST to be “right.” There are REASONS, however, that you have NOT: (1) the Holy Spirit doesn’t just LET anyone “hobble” together things in his name (which is why, for all that they DO say, the WTBTS DOESN’T say they’re led by holy spirit… or THE Holy Spirit!); and (2) that Spirit is NOT leading you so that you can CLAIM him anyway (which is why THEY can’t!).
I believe the Holy Spirit is more informed than any earlthy source.
That’s not accurate, BOTR. The TRUTH is that you don’t believe that at all, if what you have posted thus far is to be believed. YOU believe that your “earthly sources” (for instance, Crossan and all the others you named) are more informed that the Holy Spirit. C’mon… go back and read your comments. YOU are the one claiming “authority” from “earthly sources.” I claim understanding from the Holy Spirit… your DENIAL of which has led to where we are in this discussion. And so your statement here is a “denial” (you know: “don’t even know it’s a lie”!)… and another one of your contradictions.
When someone posts outright lies, misconceptions, shows that they are out of the mainstream, it is unlikely the Holy Spirit claim is valid.
And here is the gist of your “problem” with me: NOT that I post lies OR misconceptions… because I don’t… but because:
“… shows they are OUT OF THE MAINSTREAM”…
Which is also utterly absurd. NOAH was out of the mainstream. ABRAHAM was out of the mainstream. MOSES was out of the mainstream. The PROPHETS were out of the mainstream. The APOSTLES were out of the mainstream. PAUL was out of the mainstream. Why? Because CHRIST… the HOLY SPIRIT… was OUT OF THE MAINSTREAM. (Again, I am not yelling – I’m just sayin’. With emphasis. Because apparently you didn’t know this… but how THAT could be… I mean, what with all that you apparently DO know…)
I will never apologize for reading a few books on the topics.
Nor has anyone ASKED you to. I certainly didn’t…
Some facts, such as whether an Ethiopian eunuch would be a Jew are objective facts. True, NT scholarship presents few objective facts but when you don't know the few that exist, the Holy Spirit is blundering.
It isn’t the Holy Spirit who blunders - it the one who isn’t LISTENING to that Spirit who does so.
Yet God does not blunder (in some schools).
I would absolutely agree. Question is: which “school” do YOU belong to? Because you’re not exactly clear ANYWHERE in this post…
I don't claim Holy Spirit speaking to me as to every detail.
I haven’t heard you claim such… at ALL . As to ANY detail.
A Guest and I end up arguing over apples and oranges.
LOLOLOL! No, dear one. We were only discussing… and doing so about oranges (i.e., the “Jewish-ness” of the Ethiopian Eunuch). And nothing but. I said I got my orange from a small island off the coast. YOU said, “No, no such island exists because it isn’t on any map I’VE ever seen.” I said, “Well, perhaps you haven’t seen it on the maps YOU’VE looked at, but there are maps with it on them out there.” YOU said, “Really?! Well, SHOW much such a map.” I said, “Sorry, I don’t happen to have one right now – I didn’t use a map to get there. Just came across it [the island] during my travels.”
And THEN… someone else showed you a map… and you virtually lost your mind (though, you’re trying to say I’m the one who did – LOLOLOL!).
Rather than saying, “Oh, oops, I guess there ARE maps… even if it’s only one or two… and maybe there IS an island out there, after all. And if so, maybe that IS where you got your oranges. But, I really need to see the island… and the oranges… MYSELF… before I can fully believe you. But don’t let me stop YOU from believing it. I mean, you say it happened… okay… maybe it did.”
I never deviated from the topic of our discussion, dear BOTR – you did. From the Ethiopian to my “source.” Some call that a “red herring.”
I can't defeat a caprice of an individual.
Why are you TRYING to? So that you can be “right”??
She can't defeat the scholarship I've read.
I didn’t NEED to (although, I take it that dear Awen’s contribution wasn’t sufficient for you). You can take what I share… or leave it. Again, this isn’t Moot Court or a Mock Debate. It’s an Internet discussion board.
We squawk at each other but never communicate.
I truly am not “squawking”. I really am speaking slowly, kindly, mildly. AND … trying to break things down as MUCH as I can. Which is why my posts are always so long! Some of you REQUIRE long responses. So I can certainly see why Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul, and others… had to go on… and on… and on. Because of DULLNESS in “hearing” on the part of Israel ! Goodness, can you IMAGINE what COULD have happened had they gotten the sense of things in, say, a couple few words/phrases or paragraphs? Even one or two pages?!! A look at the writings will tell you, though, that THAT wasn’t happening!
I suggest words or phrases such as "This is my view based on........." I believe this b/c................I am interested in your thoughts or concerns. Have you considered.....?
But YOU don’t heed your OWN suggestions, BOTR. For instance, I could SAY: "This is my view based on what I received from my Lord…”. Or "I believe this b/c it is what my Lord, the Holy Spirit, has told/shown me.” “I am interested in your thoughts or concerns. Have you considered that there were Jews from EVERY nation, including Ethiopia, in Jerusalem at the time ?”
But you wouldn’t receive THAT anymore than what I’ve ALREADY stated to you. What you’re “suggesting”, therefore, is that I “tickle” your ears… say what YOU want me to say… as well as the WAY you want me to say it. Why? Because it would be EASIER for you to hear? Or to BEAR ? But I would have to ask you: haven’t you been lied to ENOUGH already? Do you REALLY prefer lies… so long as their said in the manner you want them to be… over the TRUTH… even if the way it is presented is a little “difficult” for you to bear?
This allows conversation. Negating what 2,000 academic scholars say on no basis and talking down to me is not a conversation.
I’m sorry, dear BOTR… but the Spirit doesn’t work that way. He doesn’t care what 20,000 academic scholars say, or even one. And he doesn’t talk down – he speaks in truth. Which is often quite forthright. He doesn’t speak with a whole lot of “flowery” words; he says what he says. Mildly… with peace… and in love. Always. But absolutely without BS. None. Truly. Those who could handle this had no problem hearing him… then… and have none, now. Those who had problems… then… couldn’t handle this. Just as those who have problems can’t NOW . This truth is not hidden – it’s right there for all to see.
I acknowledge I have not been blameless in these exchanges. This situation with A Guest drains me, belittles both of us. I am offering an olive branch from me.
I absolutely ACCEPT!! Without reservation! BUT… with the hope that YOU try to understand and speak with/to ME… in the same way that YOU wish ME to understand and speak with/to YOU!
There are ways that our dialgoues could be informative and respectufl.
Indeed! And my Lord knows… I try. Truly, I do.
Gypsies see things no one else see.
I actually know some Roma who do (I’m not sure if you’re aware, but they really don’t like the term “gypsie” – it’s actually derogatory to them)!
I acknowledge in church all the time that my scholarly approach has its limits.
Not gonna touch that one… LOLOLOL!
Does Phillip's encounter truly matter or does my conduct today matter?
Since the thread was ABOUT Philip’s encounter… meaning someone wanted to KNOW… I think BOTH matter: the TRUTH regarding the encounter, as well as our conduct. I believe that sticking with the Holy Spirit reveals the first… and listening to and following him helps with the second.
Christ chose very common fishermen not top nothch Hebrew scholars.
Which why I don’t get that someone who has the faith you DO have… keeps tending to forget that. But praise JAH… you’re beginning to “see”!
Here’s MY olive branch… extended to YOU, dear BOTR. I am MORE than willing to start again. I have decided to do my best to just overlook your posts… because I think just the fact that I even comment causes you some manner of stress. I cannot promise that I won’t comment… but I will only do so if my Lord compels or directs me. Again, please do not take my emphasis for yelling. I was not, did not… and do not. Just want you to get it… so that you can GET me.
Again, I bid you peace and, I am…
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
