Irony in Mark

by JosephAlward 18 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    RWC,

    If you wish to confirm that scholars in the religious studies departments at secular universities, such as UC Berkeley, Stanford, Harvard, Columbia, and another dozen or so of the top ten universities whose professors are not expected to hold to Biblical inerrancy,you might want to access their web pages and write to professors who specialize in the gospels. Ask them if they believe that all or part of the gospels are fictional, and that Jesus' historicity is in dispute. It would be better if you do this yourself, don't you think, rather than your having to take my word for it?

    Now, RWC, I've given you quite a bit of evidence which I think shows that the gospels are fictional, and you've dismissed my arguments in general terms, saying that my arguments are unsupported, but you've never given a substantive and supported argument in rebuttal. Would you care to defend your view that Matthew did not manufacture fictional gospel stories? Perhaps you can start by explaining why you think that Matthew was right about Jesus having his disciples fetch a donkey AND a colt, and then explain why Mark, Luke, and John said that Jesus only had his disciples fetch a donkey. This argument was presented in detail in another thread on this forum. If you cannot show that there is no error here, then perhaps you should take a very close look at your beliefs. Which of them are based on your own careful research of the Bible, and which of them do you believe just because others believe them, too.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • rem
    rem

    RWC,

    You provided me no evidence. All I am looking for is evidence. So far in my research I have found none. I'm not interested in what is popular, only in what is based on fact.

    My research has included many sources including protestant (Zondervan/NIV) study bibles, Catholic study bibles, many websites with arguments on both sides, even JW literature and more. I've gone through a lot of material, but so far I've not found any evidence, only traditions.

    rem

    "We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
  • RWC
    RWC

    Rem, The evidence that I have is as follows:

    1. This person is identified as the author by the early church fathers including Polycarp, Hermas, Papias, Irenaeus ( who wrote - And after their(Peter and Paul's) deathMark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, himself also handed down to us in writing the things preached by Peter), Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Terullian, Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, Eusebius, Jerome, and Augustine.

    2. He is identified within the Bible itself: He was a Jewish Christian whhose mother, Mary, owned a home in Jerusalem where the earlt church met ( Acts 12:12); He was the cousin of Barnabas ( Col. 4:10);When 1 Peter was written, Mark was with Peter in Rome and regarded as Peter's spiritual son ( 1Peter 5:13)

    3. There is evidence within Mark itself to connect this author with Peter such as the inclusion of the unique words "and Peter" ( 16:7) and the close similarity between the broad outline of this Gospel and Peter's sermon detailed in Acts 10.

    Joseph,

    I respectfully disagree that you have given detailed reasons why you think the Gospel of Mark or Jesus is fictional. You have given nothing more than your opinions and speculations. These are some of the same opnions as expressed by the members of the Jesus seminar, which are long on theory and speculation but short on evidence.

    As for Harvard professors I would point you to Harvard Law Professor Simon Greeleaf. He was known as the most prominent professor of evidence in his day and wrote a book on evidence that was quoted by the Supreme court. He studied the evidence to support and deny that Christ was a true historical figure and concluded that he was and became a Christian. ( As cited by Irwin Linton in his book A Lawyer Examines the Bible).

    I do not view the differences between the accounts of the colt and the donkey as contradictions. In all of them Jesus enters the city on a colt. Matthew includes a donkey, but that does not contradict the other accounts, it adds to them. For example if four people say that a man was wearing blue pants and one of them adds that he was wearing a red shirt, does that addition contradict the other versions or does it simply add to them another detail? This additional detail could easily have been given by Matthew since he was a disciple and was acutally present when the event happened.

    Also, does the addition of the donkey by Matthew defeat that the prophecy was fulfilled? It doesn't. The essense of the prophecy is fulfilled by Jesus, the Messiah, entering Jerusalem on an animal triumphantly. All of which is consistent in the Gospels.

    Finally, you are incorrect in your reading. Mark wrote that the disciples fetched a colt, as does Luke. John mentions it as an "ass" and quotes the prophecy as an "ass's colt". But is a baby horse still not a horse? Of course it is. SO if one writer refers to it as a horse and another as a colt aren't they both right?

    Joseph, you go to great lengths in your attempt to show apparent contradictions in the Bible? I have asked you before why this is but never received an answer. Of course that is private and if you do not want to answer that is fine. I am just curious where you are coming from. For me, the fact that the Bible was written by over forty men over thousands of years is free from condradiction proves to me that it was an inspired book. By beliefs are intact.

  • rem
    rem
    1. This person is identified as the author by the early church fathers including Polycarp, Hermas, Papias, Irenaeus ( who wrote - And after their(Peter and Paul's) deathMark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, himself also handed down to us in writing the things preached by Peter), Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Terullian, Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, Eusebius, Jerome, and Augustine.

    Still no real evidence, unless you accept 2nd and 3rd hand accounts as proof. Unfortunately any primary evidence has not survived to our day, and the second hand evidence seems to be steeped in tradition rather than facts. If you care to research the topic, you will find out how credulous ancient historians and the early church fathers really were when it came these traditions. Verifiable facts were not as highly regarded as by modern historians.

    2. He is identified within the Bible itself: He was a Jewish Christian whhose mother, Mary, owned a home in Jerusalem where the earlt church met ( Acts 12:12); He was the cousin of Barnabas ( Col. 4:10);When 1 Peter was written, Mark was with Peter in Rome and regarded as Peter's spiritual son ( 1Peter 5:13)
    And exactly how is this is evidence that he wrote the Gospel of Mark?

    3. There is evidence within Mark itself to connect this author with Peter such as the inclusion of the unique words "and Peter" ( 16:7) and the close similarity between the broad outline of this Gospel and Peter's sermon detailed in Acts 10.
    I see speculation, yet no evidence. I don't yet see any factual backing for your specific claim that Mark is indeed the writer of the Gospel of Mark. None of the speculation you have provided is based on primary sources - only 2nd and 3rd hand accounts handed down and accepted by tradition by later Church leaders and credulous historians.

    I'm not so much taking issue with the possibility that a man named Mark did author the work, but rather with your seemingly dogmatic assertion that Mark was in fact the author with no question.

    rem

    "We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    RWC,

    The contradictions I asked you to try to resolve do not deal with whether there could have been a second animal with Jesus when he entered Jerusalem; the contradiction I’m alleging concerns what happened before the ride into Jerusalem.

    I’ll provide again the relevant verses and then ask again the questions I wish you to focus on.

    Mark

    And …he sendeth forth two of his disciples, And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him…And they brought the colt to Jesus (Mark 11:1-7)
    Matthew

    And …then sent Jesus two disciples, Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. (Matthew 21:1-5)

    The three questions I had hoped you would answer are these, RWC:

    1. How Many Animals Did Jesus Say Were Tied?

    Did Jesus say that the disciples would find a colt tied, as Mark claims, or did he say they would find a colt and an ass tied, as Matthew claims? They cannot each be right about what Jesus said. Either Jesus said what Mark claims, or he said what Matthew claims, or else he didn’t say what either of them said he said.

    2. How Many Animals Did Jesus Say Should be Brought to Him?

    Did Jesus say, “Bring him,” as Mark claims, or, “Bring them,” as Matthew claims? Again, Jesus couldn’t have said both of these things.

    3. Did They Bring One Animal to Jesus, or Two?

    Did they bring to Jesus just one animal--a colt, as Mark claims, or two animals--a colt and an ass, as Matthew claims?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • RWC
    RWC

    REM,

    It seems that you are requiring greater proof to the Gospel of Mark than would be applied to other ancient texts. If people who lived at the time it was written explain who the author is, why is that not proof? Even if you say it is tradition, there is no dispute as to the author is. We seem to have more direct evidence of the authors of the Gospels than that of other ancient documents such as the Iliad, yet it is not accepted without question.

    Joseph,

    In all due respect, what does it matter? Is Matthew wrong if he says that Jesus said to get a donkey and a colt and Mark says Jesus said to get a colt? In either version the event is recorded as happening. The truth in the section is that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a colt in fullfillment of the prophecy. None of the Gospels are in contradiction on the event itself. This is no basis to say that the Gospels are fictional or that the stories are made up.

    You never answered my question on your motivation. I am curious.

    You also fail to list the historians who you rely upon to say that Jesus was a fiction. I would like their names.

    God Bless

  • rem
    rem

    RWC,

    No, actually I'm demanding the SAME proof for the Gospel of Mark as would be applied to other ancient texts. You are the one that requires LESS evidence to make a dogmatic assertion.

    No doubt you have heard of pseudonomous writings? They were quite common in ancient times, including the first century. There are many ancient texts (both biblical and extra-biblical) in which the authorship is under question. As far as the Illiad or the Odyssey, it is generally accepted that they were written by Homer, but I would not dogmatically say that we KNOW for sure that they were written by Homer if there isn't enough evidence to make such an assertion.

    Remember, you were the one that made quite a specific assertion without primary evidence. At first you did not aknowledge that your evidence was not as strong as you asserted. Finally, when you were forced to show your evidence, and it was shown to be less than air-tight, you claim that I'm expecting more than I expect for other ancient texts. This is not true. My standard is the same - there is no absolute knowledge when it comes to such things, there are only degrees of confidence based upon the evidence. That's why it is important to distinguish between tradition and fact.

    rem

    "We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
  • Julie
    Julie

    Greetings all,

    Rem, you said:

    :Still no real evidence, unless you accept 2nd and 3rd hand accounts as proof. Unfortunately any primary evidence has not survived to our day, and the second hand evidence seems to be steeped in tradition rather than facts. If you care to research the topic, you will find out how credulous ancient historians and the early church fathers really were when it came these traditions. Verifiable facts were not as highly regarded as by modern historians.

    Not only do you make excellent points here but if you toss in the kicker that these men had a personal stake in perpetuating these accounts you have some pretty concrete reasoning IMO.

    I would like to add that, Joseph, I think you have more than met your burden in presenting your reasoning and you, RWC started dodging long ago in this thread by not addressing the reasonings put forward. You simply dimiss them as not "proof". Well here is a little newsflash for you, there is not "proof" either way and it is all Interpretation (or whathaveyou). You were presented with solid reasonings, I would like to see you refute these reasonings instead of squabbling over what this or that professor said.

    Whether you realize it or not, by addressing the arguments that Joseph is putting forth in the manner that you are doing does little to further your cause/case. Here is an example if you do not get what I mean, Joseph made this statement:

    :There is zero evidence outside of the Bible that there actually was a "Jesus" described in the Bible; the only evidence for the "prophecies" Jesus allegedly fulfilled is in the Bible. To prove the Bible stories are true, the apologist thinks he's permitted to point to the stories of prophecy fulfillments found in the Bible as proof that the Bible is accurate; that's nonsensical circular reasoning, of course.

    This, coupled with the rest of his post apparently compelled you to inquire and conclude:

    :Are you also saying that Mary never lived, nor Joseph, nor Pilate, nor Herod, nor Joseph of Arimathea. For the Gospels to be made up, when all of these real men are mentioned at the time they were said to engage in the acts described in the Bible, all of this would have to be refuted as false.

    First of all I don't know about you but I did not even see Joseph infer that these other charcters you metnioned didn't actually exist, why do you make that jump? Ah, yes the answer to that is in this quote just above isn't it? You seem to be under the mistaken impression that in order for a story to have any fiction in it it must be pure fiction. Ever hear of a historical novel? The kind "based on a true story"? Or historical movies with the same thing? There are part-truths everywhere you look.

    I hope you will address some of Joseph's reasoning RWC, it will be interesting to see you present the counter reasoning of this discussion.

    Regards,
    Julie

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    RWC asks,

    Is Matthew wrong if he says that Jesus said to get a donkey and a colt and Mark says Jesus said to get a colt?
    If the writers were just recounting what they recall seeing, or what they thought was important, then one could understand if one of them didn't mention both animals, if indeed there had been two animals. But, unfortunately for the apologist, the two writers claim to be telling us what Jesus actually said, what words he actually used. It is not possible for Jesus to have said, as Matthew claims,"ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her, AND for Jesus to have said, according to Mark, "ye shall find a colt tied."

    Thus, we don't know which of the two quotes from Jesus are correct: Did he say there would be found just a colt tied, or did he say there would be found a colt and a donkey tied? Furthermore, did Jesus ask that a colt be brought to him, or a colt and a donkey? One of the gospel writers is clearly wrong, and that means the Bible is in error.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

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