Lady Lee, I loved your post! All great points there!
JW's week after week trying to convert me
by HBJ 79 Replies latest jw friends
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punkofnice
Welcome HBJ form Uncle Punk!
Is this divine intervention?
No. It's just Satan transfoming himself into an angel of light.
My take on the Watchtower is that it's an antichrist pyramid business scheme posing as a religion to give power and money to the leaders.
You are correct, their writings are replete with 'hypnotic language' and 'logical fallacies', something that sounds logical but is has a faulty basis.
They would argue that unicorns DO have spots without admitting unicorns don't exist.
These people that call are under mind control that convices them their leaders are 100% correct and only the leaders can interpret the Bible. I'm sure they are very sincere and really do want to save you in their own twisted way.
Perhaps tell them firmly and politely: 'Please mark your records not to call here again!' They'll think the Devil's got you but that's their problem.
As you said they have to earn salvation that's why they come back. They can mark you down at the end of the month as a 'return visit' and count time to put on their report slip. The report slip is the thing by which the leaders judge them! Where is God in all this? Nowhere, they are in an antichrist corporation!
Let us know how it goes.
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jookbeard
thanks for sharing and keep plugging away, scripture discussions often achieve very little due to the fact they have so many proof texts memorised into their brainwashed minds that you can have those type of debates all day long, as someone posted the real way to advance this confrontation is to use their own literature and highlight some examples of their persistent lies,false doctrine and outright failed predictions in which they lead a world table in, also getting involved in a debate about their claim to be Gods only chosen channel on Earth today and research articles where they have clearly failed, also using the scripture in Duet 18 that identifies them as a false prophet will spice up the confrontations with them somewhat, they will come back with being active in over 200 lands etc but these claims can be dismissed with stats that Mormons and other churches claim.
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poppers
Even with my extensive schooling, they have thrown out some interesting points, and insist that they’re not trying to convert me, but show me what God truly says.
A bald faced lie if ever there was one. What's their point in going door to door if not to recruit new members? That's the only way, aside from born-in members, to increase their membership. If you said, "Ok, I agree with what you claim God truly says, but I want no part of your religion," what do you suppose their reaction would be?
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HBJ
Thank you for the reprieve, Lady Lee. Your post was outstanding on all points. Yes, it can be difficult when the JWs converse with you, as they truly believe in what they are saying. This is particularly true regarding individuals that were born into this system. It is hard to cut through that, and no matter what knowledge you may have, it can catch you off guard, as it did with me. I am so accustom to taking a scientific approach to Biblical issues that when the personal aspect comes into play, it can throw a wrench into your psyche. I have been a Protestent Christian most of my life, and even with an educated background, which during a few conversations I shelved, I started to question myself about certain beliefs. Hey, I'm only human. I do believe that many of the JWs are good people who care about their fellow man/woman, but have been mislead by the wt.
The reason I've continued to converse with these two in particular was because one of them appeared to demonstrate a small interest in getting to the real truth. That appeared atypical for a JW, according to everything I've researched about them. The silent one I spoke of just fires out in moderate anger, (probably an autobot defense mechanism), when I confront his "brother" with various verses from Scripture that he can't counter using his NWT. When I quoted said verses to him, he didn't tuck tail and run like the "run of the mill" JWs I've read about. This stirred my interest in continuing our conversations. I asked myself several times during the weeks that we spoke, "would Jesus kick them out of the house"? I don't profess to be a model Christian, but whether they were attempting stealth methods to convert me, continuing our talks was the Christian thing to do in my opinion.
I truly like the one in particular. He appeared to show a genuine interest in continuing to talk to me about searching for the truth. He put his NWT aside for several discussion, and has used a 100 year old King James Bible that he brought with him, as his "brother" sat there red in the face. He told me at every visit that he wasn't here to shove anything down my throat, and that what I did with the information we found together was my choice alone. One might say that it is a passive way in planting a seed, and it might be?
I thank you for your very positive and informative post.
HBJ -
james_woods
I truly like the one in particular. He appeared to show a genuine interest in continuing to talk to me about searching for the truth. He put his NWT aside for several discussion, and has used a 100 year old King James Bible that he brought with him, as his "brother" sat there red in the face. He told me at every visit that he wasn't here to shove anything down my throat, and that what I did with the information we found together was my choice alone. One might say that it is a passive way in planting a seed, and it might be?
That is a reasonable point in support of dragging this on.
However, I would take the other side of the coin and warn you that the JWs can be extremely deceptive. They are actually taught to deceive people in order to further their goals - some of the smarter door to door preachers among them can call on people 2 or 3 times and actually hide the fact that they are really Jehovah's Witnesses. They would much rather claim that they are "Bible Students" when they first call at the door. I suspect that the guy you mention may be (at least in large part) faking this "honest search for truth" to keep you going.
Having said that, I can tell you this: It was a Church of Christ minister (and college professor) who first revealed to me that the JWs had mistranslated the New Testament when they just inserted the name Jehovah all through it out of their own sectarian interest in that name. I researched it on my own and discovered (to my great disgust) that he was absolutely right.
So maybe there is some hope in what you are doing - provided you have the stomach and the patience for it.
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blondie
It is possible for non-jws to talk to jws and plant a seed of doubt or desire to look deeper. I studied with a young couple and they asked me to prove from the Bible that Jesus was Michael the archangel. I thought it would be simple. As a dug deeper I found that even the WTS made this an EVIDENTLY/APPARENTLY doctrine...nothing for certain. I asked myself, would God's purpose be thwarted if they were 2 different people.
After that I started looking at other things more deeply and found many other things that did not have a solid scriptural basis. In seven years, I left never to come back. So it doesn't mean that the jw will leave immediately after, but it opens the door for deeper thinking.
*** Bible Teach Book (bh) 2005 p. 218 - p. 219 Who Is Michael the Archangel? ***
Archangel. God’s Word refers to Michael "the archangel." (Jude 9) This term means "chief angel." Notice that Michael is called the archangel. This suggeststhat there is only one such angel. In fact, the term "archangel" occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice." Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.
Army Leader. The Bible states that "Michael and his angels battled with the dragon . . . and its angels." (Revelation 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions "the Lord Jesus" and "his powerful angels." (2 Thessalonians 1:7; Matthew 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and "his angels" and Jesus and "his angels." (Matthew 13:41) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.
[Footnote] More information showing that the name Michael applies to God’s Son is found in Volume 2, pages 393-4, of Insight on the Scriptures, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.
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james_woods
Blondie, that is an excellent example of JW doctrine by whole cloth of imagination instead of anything scriptural. And like you say, what real difference does it make to their so-called "christian" doctrine? Would Jesus somehow not be the Christ (like the NT actually says he was) if he was not Michael the Archangel???
An excellent, proveable point, that HBJ could use with his "JW bible instructors".
Just as a side point to this - do you know how long the witnesses have taught this Michael = Jesus doctrine? Does it go all the way back to Russell, and did they copy it from somebody else like so much of the chronology and the "torture stake" notion?
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Knowsnothing
Having said that, I can tell you this: It was a Church of Christ minister (and college professor) who first revealed to me that the JWs had mistranslated the New Testament when they just inserted the name Jehovah all through it out of their own sectarian interest in that name. I researched it on my own and discovered (to my great disgust) that he was absolutely right. - james_woods
The Kingdom Interlinear Translation explains the reason for inserting Jehovah. The theory seems quite sound.
I tend to agree with the insertion of Jehovah in the NT, where there is a citation of the OT.
As a dug deeper I found that even the WTS made this an EVIDENTLY/APPARENTLY doctrine...nothing for certain. - blondie
Blondie, they make a compelling argument for Michael being Jesus. It goes down to that whole trinity thing. If Jesus isn't equal in divinity to God, and was created, then there is nothing wrong with him being Michael.
Jesus being Micheal only conflicts when Jesus is also supposed to be God.
However, that being said, I agree that the Governing Body is
1.) unscriptural (has no scriptural backing, besides the weak foundation of Acts),
2.) sets themselves up as the ultimate authority for a Witness (and not Scripture or God or personal conscience, which is bull),
3.) and simply tolerates no dissension.
If Jehovah need you to be a JW to be saved, then I pity the poor bastards that spent their life believing in false "Christendom". That just doesn't make sense.
It's like they take salvation into their own hands and then say, "if you don't eat what we have to give you, you are doomed."
WTF?
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james_woods
The Kingdom Interlinear Translation explains the reason for inserting Jehovah. The theory seems quite sound.
No such "Theory" can possibly be sound without the proof of supporting original language New Testament writings. Otherwise, they inserted it on their own - theory or not.
Blondie, they make a compelling argument for Michael being Jesus.
Bullshit. If the bible writers wanted us to believe this, why didn't they say so in the first place? There is not the slightest hint of such a thing in the scriptures.
Not only is WT teaching completely authoritarian and arbitrary, but it simply does not stand up to simple reasoning.