Watchtower — baptism — thousands of Children

by Marvin Shilmer 28 Replies latest jw friends

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  jmorgan74

  Hey, everybody. I just want to thank everyone for not immediately opening fire on me. I've been hesitant to speak my mind thus far because I felt like what I had to say wouldn't be welcomed because of the seemingly ever present axe grinding against the Watchtower. I'm just glad we can all disagree calmly.
  
  Let me try to explain some more about what I mean when I feel like a post like Marvin's - which prompted this discussion - is ultimately a distraction from the real issue and doesn't add any value.
  
  Quandry, you said:
  "The problem with "expressing their love for God by baptism" is that young children have no concept that their baptism means that everything they do will be scrutinized..."
  
  And THAT'S the problem. It has nothing to do with age. Let me explain. Baptism should not mean that even as adults everything we do gets scrutizined. That is the Watchtower's twisting about what it means to be a Christian. That's what we need to focus on. It is just as wrong to trap someone as an adult in a situation where they're expected to hand over their ability to 'think independently' (I am paraphrasing the Watchtower here) to a small group of religious leaders. Some of us were adults when we got baptized. And honestly, I should've known better. But in my heart I wanted to do what was right, and the things I had doubts about I thought I would deal with and figure out later. But later came and I didn't have any answers, and even though I learned a lot from the Watchtower I never was taught how to have a real relationship with God. It's something I'm working on now.
  
  George said:
  "If someone is too young to have sex, get married, vote, drink alcohol, because they are under (insert legal age requirement for your country) then how can they be sufficiently mature to make an equally life changing decision such as getting baptised as a JW?"
  
  Remove the words "...as a JW" and I think you'll see more where I'm coming from. I don't think baptizing minors is wrong. I don't believe we can use secular law as some sort of precedent or guideline in advance of what the Bible teaches or is silent upon. If a minor says to me that they love God and want to be baptized, who am I to say that they cannot do so? Everyone matures at their own pace and no one can make a hard and fast rule about that, it all depends on the person. And if the focus was about God and loving him, then I don't think anyone posting in this topic would have a problem with it at all.
  
  But see, when you say "...as a JW", it's clear to me that you're reading into the premise the whole baggage that goes along with being a JW, which I also object to. So really, I think we end up agreeing with each other. I would just add that the abuses of the Watchtower leadership as it applies to adults, and children (I make no distinction between the two, as it doesn't matter to me in the slightest), is completely wrong.
  
  sizemilk, you said:
  "It's just pulling the other end of the same piece of rope . . .Spending your life adhering to the rules and doctrines of a high-control religion is a decision that should be made by an adult ...."
  
  No, no, no, no, no. It shouldn't have to be made by ANYONE. That's the point! It's not the same piece of rope, it's not even in the same room.
  
  Listen, I firmly and strongly believe that a "high-control" religion is not the one Jesus founded. Ironically, that's exactly what Jesus condemned when he was dealing with the Pharisees.
  
  Let's take disfellowshipping as an example. If I can quote loosely from Rob Bell for a moment, it's clear to me that disfellowshipping was a last resort method, used after all other attempts to help that person was exhausted. It was saved for the worst of offenses, and only when a person stubbornly held on to their wrongdoing to the point that it was clear that there was NO OTHER WAY to convince them to stop, were they to be "handed over to Satan". In other words, what they were doing was so wrong and they were so attached to it, that the only way to get them to stop was to allow them to continue their path in the hope that they would eventually burn out on their own sin and realize that the best way of life was back with their fellow Christians.
  
  Today, the Watchtower organization disfellowship people for practically anything, using wider and wider definitions of Biblical terms as justification. They care less and less about trying to help a person. By the time a judicial committee is created, the focus is no longer on establishing repentance but establishing guilt.
  
  When I read about Jesus' example as a shepherd, in my mind a true elder would be with someone who pleads with a sinner, for hours, and days, and weeks in the hopes that what they say will get through to that person. A true elder would leave the 99 to find the lost sheep. He would have tears in his eyes while looking at you in the face trying to convince you how what you're doing will only end up hurting yourself. And only when you stubbornly push his loving arms away does he finally hang his head and recognize that you will need to explore that path on your own and learn the hard way. Then, and only then, should disfellowshipping be considered an option.
  
  Nowadays, if you just read something and have questions about it, you can be disfellowshipped if you don't immediately agree to the status quo. You can make a mistake in the moment and have every aspect of the situation coldly analyzed to see if it fits in with a pre-written set of "principles", as a cheap way to try and read a person's heart condition.
  
  And let's say you go through all that and want to come back. Now you have to come back to the Kingdom Hall for at least a year, maybe more, all the while not speaking to anyone and not having anyone speak to you. What happened to the prodigal son, who was yet far off when his father came and greeted him with open arms? What happened to love and mercy and forgiveness?
  
  These are the things we should be focusing on and talking about. Not in an angry bitter way, but to resolve within ourselves to try and live up to those standards and to love everyone, including those who make themselves our enemies, as Jesus said we should. Why? Because love wins.
  
  Marvin, you're right, I don't think your post was substantive. I don't agree with the premise upon which your rhetorical question was based on. And the sight of someone dedicating themselves to God and to love and serve him should bring us joy.
  
  What should make us angry is, what you mentioned next, which is the blood policy, which is a mess. It needs to be abandoned and the Watchtower should stop making binding medical decisions upon on the flock. But that's true whether you're 8 or you're 18. Write another blog article on that, then I would be interested.
  
  Also, please go back and explain this: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2011/06/eve-and-her-daughters-whats-wrong-with.html

  It's been over a month now and you never answered your own question about what was wrong with the picture. After spending probably too much of my time reading one of your articles that has more pictures than it has words trying to figure it out, I would really like to know what the point was.
  
  Thanks,
  Jack
• 

  sizemik

  Nowadays, if you just read something and have questions about it, you can be disfellowshipped

  I think this is the point I'm making Jack . . . but you may have missed it.

  If a child is baptised . . . chances are they have read and understood bugger-all compared to what they might do as an adult . . . and then as an adult, the questions arise . . . that makes child baptism a greater crime . . . all of the mechanisms of control are now being applied to someone who made a decision they were simply not equipped to make. Merely considering the wrongness of disfellowshipping and high-control does not address the problem in entirety for those baptised as children . . . capiche?

  If an adult makes a life-changing decision to join . . . he must accept a degree of culpability when those unanswered questions arise . . . not so with a child.

  So for a person baptised as a child . . . the early baptism does not become a seperate issue from having to deal with the negatives of that decision at a later date . . . . hence . . . . the same piece of rope.

  The comment was made in the context of the thread title . . . not as a general statement.

  I hope this is clearer now.

  ED to add: There is not a single religion on earth today that resembles what Jesus intended . . . unless you can point one out?

  ED to add (2); If every thread here was confined to the "real issue" as you see it . . . it would make for a pretty boring and repetitive Forum. All sorts of issues are discussed here . . . seemingly trivial and otherwise. Please feel free to start a thread on any issue you feel is important . . . you make some good points . . . I'd love to discuss them with you
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  Brother Jack writes:

  “It's been over a month now and you never answered your own question about what was wrong with the picture.”

  Good god, man! You need to breathe in some fresh air and unwind just a bit. It appears to me you’re probably the only person on planet earth that does not see what is “wrong” about that set of illustrations.

  The whole thing was no more than seeing humor in Watchtower’s pitiful attempt at illustrating the will of God. In this case, if Sister Perfect Eve walked about totally nude then for goodness sake why in the perfect “new world” is Sister Perfect Janet not also walking about totally nude? It’s not as though Watchtower was so prudish it would not publish illustrations showing teats; they were doing so on a regular basis! The whole damn picture Watchtower paints is wrong from top to bottom, including what those pictures say about the backward psyche of Watchtower’s top leadership; demonstrably they can draw boobies, but they cannot bring themselves to draw boobies in the “new world”. That says something. It is humorous. It is sad.

  As for the baptism thing,

  The two children in the photo are prepubescent.

  From the perspective of a Watchtower baptism: It is patently absurd to think a prepubescent child is capable of deciding on their own a lifetime commitment but is incapable of deciding on their own what time they will go to bed and what will compose their diet.

  From the perspective of a Christian baptism: An adult who baptizes a prepubescent child and thinks they have done something beyond getting the child wet is, in my book, an idiot. At that stage of life a child has no clue of what they want to do with their life other than have food and fun.

  Respectfully, I recommend that you look beyond your own perspective. And, thankfully, I not only appreciate you sharing your perspective but encourage that you continue doing so for sake of exposing all readers to views beyond their own.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  sd-7

  I think it's clear that the Watchtower Society is wrong in allowing children to get baptized. Remember what's being asked of them. Remember when James and John, was it, asked to be on Jesus' right and left hand? In principle, it's similar. You're asking children to drink the cup Jesus drank, and yet something far more--to be willing to die, if necessary, for whatever the Society says they should be willing to die for. Ultimately, they're becoming soldiers for the Society, albeit in a spiritual sense. I got baptized at 12 myself. Hitting puberty was a nightmare. I almost lost my mind back then.

  Baptism isn't a protection; conscience is. Baptism just serves to boost their recruitment numbers and give them more strong backs to put to work with their busy work in the KH. And it's a way to make sure they can directly punish you for any 'bad' behavior and make sure that people shun you in an official capacity.

  This is a more serious decision than any other that can be made. It's not for children. It's for those who are old enough to fully understand the responsibilities of it all. Someone who can truly, independently, make that decision for themselves with full knowledge of its consequences.

  --sd-7
• 

  jmorgan74

  Hey, Marvin.
  
  Marvin said:
  "Good god, man! You need to breathe in some fresh air and unwind just a bit. It appears to me you’re probably the only person on planet earth that does not see what is “wrong” about that set of illustrations."
  
  Honestly, the thought did cross my mind that what you thought might be wrong with that picture is the fact that people in paradise would be wearing clothes, whereas before when they were perfect they did not. I guess I was expecting more from you, Marvin. That's actually a compliment. Most of the time you do provide more.
  
  I remember speculating about that with my family growing up around the Watchtower. But that's all it is, speculation. We don't know what will happen exactly. I'm inclined to speculate that now the "cat is out of the bag" ('our eyes have been opened') we will not suddenly revert back to the same childlike innocence that Adam and Eve possessed before the fall. But I don't know for sure. For all I know, we might eventually be wearing space suits and visiting other planets. Who knows! But it seems like you're expecting the Watchtower to come to some sort of set understanding about a non-essential issue that we can't even begin to be sure about, and when they don't, you somehow read something "bad" into it. Your fixation on breasts (there are males in some of the pictures as well) notwithstanding.
  
  Not trying to be mean here. But telling me to calm down when you're the one making blog posts about these types of... I don't know even know what to call it...asinine? ... I'm at a loss. Doctor, heal thyself.
  
  I can appreciate you telling me to look beyond my own perspective. I think you should do the same. The adamancy of your assumption that the kids that were baptized in that photo couldn't feed themselves or know when to go to bed is astounding to me. Marvin, I know you, and I know you're not a young man exactly. You didn't just fall off the turnip wagon. You know what kind of responsibilities minors have had to deal with during the time period of which you speak. I shouldn't even have to remind you.
  
  I think I've reached a point of diminishing returns in trying to explain all this to you.
  
  Good luck on trying to convince anyone that there should be an age limit on baptism, instead of looking at the person on a case by case basis and seeing whether or not they can reasonably demonstrate the conviction of the holy spirit in their dedication to God. I'm telling you, you're better off focusing on the things we all know to be wrong with the Watchtower. A witness that's on the fence sees articles like that, they're going to shake their head and go right back to the Kingdom Hall and say to themselves "wow, the Watchtower is right, apostates really don't have anything meaningful to say."
  
  Thanks,
  Jack
• 

  jmorgan74

  Actually, you know what. I took another look at the picture. The one on the right looks pretty young. In my limited experience, I've never seen anyone baptized at what appears to be about 5 years old. Of course I never met that little girl getting baptized, so I don't know what her maturity level might've been, but you might be right. That probably was a bad call.
  
  Point retracted.
  
  Thanks,
  Jack
• 

  No Room For George

  I think it's clear that the Watchtower Society is wrong in allowing children to get baptized. Remember what's being asked of them. Remember when James and John, was it, asked to be on Jesus' right and left hand? In principle, it's similar. You're asking children to drink the cup Jesus drank, and yet something far more--to be willing to die, if necessary, for whatever the Society says they should be willing to die for. Ultimately, they're becoming soldiers for the Society, albeit in a spiritual sense. I got baptized at 12 myself. Hitting puberty was a nightmare. I almost lost my mind back then.

  Baptism isn't a protection; conscience is. Baptism just serves to boost their recruitment numbers and give them more strong backs to put to work with their busy work in the KH. And it's a way to make sure they can directly punish you for any 'bad' behavior and make sure that people shun you in an official capacity.

  This is a more serious decision than any other that can be made. It's not for children. It's for those who are old enough to fully understand the responsibilities of it all. Someone who can truly, independently, make that decision for themselves with full knowledge of its consequences.

  --sd-7

  Getting baptized at a young age is almost like committing a crime at a young age and get prosecuted for it as an adult. Like many you, through peer pressure, I got dipped at age 16 into the Watchtower, and I can say that, hands down, hands down without a doubt, it was the worst mistake I've ever made. Stupidest mistake done out of complete ignorance, and completely unaware of how my thinking and beliefs would change as I got older. I can think of many stupid things I did as a teenager and as a young man, some things which were criminal in nature, other things immoral, even unethical things. I have to say, by far, getting baptized in the name of the Watchtower, The Faithful & Discreet Slave, and the Writing Department, was by far the stupidest mistake I ever made. Had no idea that my actions at age 16 would haunt me the way they do almost two decades later.
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  jmorgan74 writes:

  “I guess I was expecting more from you, Marvin. That's actually a compliment. Most of the time you do provide more.”

  Your honest perspectives are much, much appreciated by me. If your review of my work is less than glowing, or even outright disagreement, it does not bother me in the least, and in fact I’m glad to hear it.

  If I’ve appeared somehow harsh toward you, you have misunderstood me. When I’m harsh I leave nothing whatsoever to doubt. My harshness will leave you smarting and smoking. Besides, I’m only harsh with self-made idiots, and you not an idiot of any sort. I enjoy your feedback!

  Of the pre-sin and new-world illustrations, the deeper observation is what those images tell us about the psyche of Watchtower’s top leadership. It has nothing to do with nudity and everything to do with what is going on between the ears of that top leadership. One day I’ll expound the subject and share more information accordingly.

  For now I put those images online as I did (emphasis on “as I did”) because it is entertaining to see the obvious and realize there is something going on in the background others do not realize right away. Mechanics do this with cars and their owners. Psychiatrists do this with symptoms and their owners.

  In this case, there is more I could say, and one day I will. But for now it is fun just to share and let folks make of it whatever they will.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  jmorgan74

  Thanks, Marvin. I don't think you're an idiot, either. :)
  
  I like having difficult questions posed with a thoughtful analysis, and I hope you do go back and complete your analysis in more detail. One of my favorite blogs to read for that very reason is thelastpsychiatrist.com
  
  Thanks,
  Jack