No longer a need for a mediator?

by ianao 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Grunt
    Grunt

    It is my understanding that the Society teaches that those not of the 144,000 don't need or have a mediator. The 144,000 are so blessed that the blessings "overflow" on to the Other Sheep. Because the 144,000 are their "friends" they can get FAVORS from THEIR LAWYER, Jesus Christ. The 144,000 will RENDER the blessings to the Other Sheep. It is absurd and it is hard to believe anyone would buy it. But they do. I offer this next as a typical response and final result (at least at that time.) What amazes me is how quickly people who firmly belive Christ is their mediator will give up that idea when told to by the Authority in Brooklyn. It is sad.

    Below is a part of a dialog with a Witness about the Mediatorship. When I first told her the Society's beliefs about it she called me a liar and said it wasn't true. She assured me that Jesus Christ was the Mediator for all men and that this was the teaching of the Society. Then she checked it out and this was our next and last exchange:

    Me:
    I don't want to try and argue with you, but I do want to make sure you see that without the blood of Christ your sins are not forgiven. That blood was only spilled in relation to those coming into the New Covenant. There have only been two covenants. The Old wherein sins were covered by many sacrifices of animals and had human high priests, and the New wherein Jesus is your High Priest and offers his blood for your sins. His ransom sacrifice is a part of the New Covenant and cannot be accessed without being in that New Covenant. If you don't need a mediator to pay for your sins, then why do the 144,000? They say very plainly in the quotes below that they had their sins washed away in the "cleansing blood of the Mediator" and that God had "covenanted to forgive iniquity and remember sin no more." This was part of the Covenant. If you are not in the covenant then your iniquity and sin is not covered by the blood of the Mediator, Jesus Christ. This below is talking about Paul (Saul).

    washed his sins away in the cleansing blood of the Mediator of the new covenant by calling upon the name of the great Author of the new covenant, Jehovah God, who had covenanted to forgive iniquity and remember sin no more.—Heb. 9:14-26.

    Also from the same Watchtower:

    8 No one can be adequately qualified to be a minister of God in his new covenant unless, like Saul, he has the light from God through Christ shine upon him, repents of his sinful course, accepts God’s mercy, calls upon God’s name as the Forgiver of sins to have his sins washed away in the blood of Jesus’ sacrifice and gets baptized in water and thus shows faith and makes a public confession of that faith.

    and

    Jesus Christ is Mediator of this covenant. The apostle Paul writes: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all." (1 Tim. 2:5, 6) The shedding of his blood was necessary, because those taken into the new covenant are sinners, having inherited sin and imperfection from Adam. (Rom. 5:12) Christ’s ransom sacrifice bought back all human life rights and is the basis for forgiveness of sins. Jesus "suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every man," says the apostle. (Heb. 2:9) Thus God can deal with those in the new covenant as righteous persons.—Rom. 3:23, 24; 8:1.

    Notice Cheeky, the verse ties the mediatorship between God and men with the ransom. There is no other way to get forgiveness, which is why the WT quoted the verse that said, "Thus God can deal with those in the New Covenant as righteous persons." Where does that leave you, Cheeky? Don't let slick talk and mumbo jumbo confuse you. For them to be "righteous persons" they have to be in the New Covenant. So do you. The Ransom Sacrifice is a part of the New Covenant and Christ offers his blood up in his role as Mediator of this New Covenant. If you reject his role as Mediator, you also reject his ransom and the blood he offered up for you. It is a package deal that the Society tried to separate and wish to pretend they can dole out themselves, to "render" the blessing for you is how they say it, to allow your blessings to "flow" from them. This is a lie. No where can you find support for dividing up the death of Christ into a ransom for one bunch and a new covenant forgiving sins for another bunch. It can't be done using the Bible. The one man that died for you is Jesus Christ. The one way to get the benefit from that is to believe that his blood paid for your sins and that he is the one who stands between you and God and makes you righteous in God's eyes through his shed blood. This IS the new covenant. If you aren't in it, then you are rejecting Christ and accepting these old men in Brooklyn New York as your Mediator and saying They will see that your sins are paid for and that your blessings will come through them. This is a LIE don't believe it. Here is the truth. A perfect man sinned and passed it on to you. Through a blood sacrifice ritual under an Old Covenant sins of those in the covenant were washed away until a new perfect man came and lived a perfect life and then died to initiate a new blood sacrifice ritual once for all time and pay for the sins of all those in the new covenant. If you weren't under the old covenant and offered sacrifices it did no good, if you are not in the new covenant the blood of Christ is not doing you any good. Notice what the book of Hebrews has to say:

    Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?

    I believe with all my heart that the people who have convinced you and others like you that Jesus Christ is not your Mediator and that the blood of the New Covenant is only shed for the so called "anointed" among the Jehovah's Witnesses are guilty of contempt toward the sacrifice which they try to hog to themselves. If in doubt, reread 1 Tim. 2:5-6 it is pretty clear.

    HER ANSWER:

    I have discovered an 'answer' to the mediation question that seems to make perfect sense to me. It doesn't degrade anyone as you had suggested that it did either.

    You are correct when you say that the 144,000 are the ones in the new covenant with Christ.

    Reason for this :A mediator is only needed where there is a covenant arrangement with God. The great crowd and even the resurrected dead do not need a mediator to be given back what Adam originally had.

    Here is another important bit of info, that again made perfect sense to me:

    Your water baptism did not signify that you had made a covenant with God.
    Now that I remember my vows, it was to show public display that I have dedicated myself to Jehovah, and my love for him. I was not entering any covenant with him.

    So, how are my sins paid for?

    The ransom and Christ's mediation of the New Covenant are two totally separate things. Chist's ransom covers the sins of all of Adam's offspring, right?

    Even the so-called unrighteous

    What do those who have died in complete ignorance have to do to qualify for a resurrection?

    Nada, right?

    No baptism, no repentance, no dedication. They simply wake up in the new earth. They will decide then if they are in or out. Just like we all do.

    So if that’s the case, why would they need a mediator?
    The New Covenant is validated by Christ's blood, but only those in the covenant, those invited by holy spirit actually need a mediator.

    The other sheep ARE ransomed by Christ's blood. Jesus' sacrifice does multiple things. It pays for the sins not only of the little flock but ALSO for the *whole* world's.

    What scriptures can I use to support that?

    The scripture in Timothy which talks about the ransom makes a distinction between the two groups. 1 Tim 2:6 and, 1 John 2:2, "Yet not for OURS only, but for the whole world's."

    The anointed are not mediators for the other sheep, for the simple reason that the other sheep do not *need* a mediator. Only those who are changed from humans into spirits need the special provision of a covenant, and every covenant needs a mediator.

    Now, ******, even though this may not make any sense to you or you may not accept this as an answer.....I do. This is in line with the loving arrangement that has always been. That is why I love Jehovah! Put me to the test, he says. I do. over and over and.......;-)

    This is not the picture that you painted of the GB thinking they are so above us, and we are pee-ons.

    It isn't like that at all.

    Thank you for making me look into to this, because it makes me stronger.

    Thanks to the people who help me look and see.

    Cheeky

    End of dialog.

    So I didn't do her much good. She doesn't think she is in a covenant with God. They sold it. She bought it on faith in them. They needed a Mediator to be seen as righteous, and to take away their sins, she didn't. She left with her faith stronger, she said, than before. I regretted talking to her as before I talked to her she belived Christ was her mediator, after the dialog she didn't. Not what I had hoped to achieve. Sad. I hope with all my heart she has rejected them since then, this was about a year or so ago.

  • ianao
    ianao

    Hello Grunt.

    I have recently had a similar conversation with a JW ex-friend of mine. He told me once that he had no mediator, then he came back and told me that Jesus Christ was his mediator, yet he does not consider himself annointed. He is truly confused, and the WT doesn't seem to be addressing the issue very well. From what I can tell, they are evading the subject.

    According to the WTBTS, the 144,000 are in the covenent with Christ. The "other sheep" are not. This explains to me many reasons why JWs are so non-Christian in some respects. I speculate whether the annointed consider themselves the only true Christians.

    Grunt, I wonder what your friend thought about not having a mediator, and how that effected her will to preach, since she was told to 'preach the kingdom' and make desciples as Jesus had directed. I also would love to hear her views of taking "spiritual food" from "God's spirit-directed organization" and remaining in his favor by being associated with it when TECHNICALLY she did not need a mediator at all, and could go one-on-one with Jehovah God.

    Boy am I glad I didn't get baptized. No wonder JWs are so depressed.

  • Gozz
    Gozz

    It all gets even more interesting. During a recent conversation, an elder corrected a publisher for calling the annointed 'our' brothers. He promptly said, no, they are actually Christ's brothers, and 'we' are not. It was impossible to reason with him.

  • thinkers wife
    thinkers wife

    Golly Ned!! What a mess. I guess I was always just one of those JW's who heard the information and formed my own beliefs and thoughts. Never even realized this was an issue until this thread got started. I guess it pays to be in the dark sometimes!
    TW

  • CeeCee
    CeeCee

    can someone please tell me where in the Bible it talks about the 144,000 annointed - the ones going to Heaven only. can someone also tell me where in the Bible it says there is no hell, that the "non-annointed" will live on earth after armaggedon?

    i am not being facetious just need to know. i dont know my Bible that well and i dont have one that has the whachmacallit, lol, that is the reference for subjects (i cant think of the name).

  • ianao
    ianao
    can someone please tell me where in the Bible it talks about the 144,000 annointed - the ones going to Heaven only.

    Rev 7:1-10

    can someone also tell me where in the Bible it says there is no hell

    No explicitly stated, however an Apostle's quotation of psalms in the new testament connected the Hebrew term Sheol (common grave of mankind) to the Greek's Hades (mythological land of the underworld) links the two as meaning the same. Since in Greek culture it was understood that all who die would go to the underworld (Hades), using the term Hades to refer to the Jew's COMMON grave (Sheol) as apposed to an individual grave (I forget the word, but it is different). "Hades" was a way to say "Sheol" to the Greek-speaking people.

    Also another term commonly thought of as "hell" by some translations is the Greek term Genhennah (sp?) a "dump" (where trash was burned), so to speak outside of Jerusalem in Jesus' time. (in valley of Henom, if I recall correctly.) Also another word is the Greek Tartarus (the mythological dwelling of the evil).

    All of these terms mentioned before are termed "hell" by other Bible translations, maybe with a pre-conceived notion of eternal torment in a fiery furnace coming from not knowing the historical background of many Biblical events, and spiced up with a little Neo-Platonic mentality from Greece to boot. Also, these translators did not consider the possibility of FIRE being symbolic for destruction, which harmonizes with scripture.

    So the Bible does not say there is no "hell", but it does not say there is a "hell" either, as you may be accustomed to hearing.

    Please note that in the book of Revelation, "death" and "hell" will be destroyed. (No eternal torment)

    Jesus went to "hell"(taurtarus) himself to inform the demons that he had finished his work before ascending to Heaven.

    IMHO, YOU will go to "hell" when you die. :) As will I. Will you burn? Nah, nobody threw you in a trash heep, you just died! ;)

    that the "non-annointed" will live on earth after armaggedon?

    I'm at work now, and don't have time to look up the scriptures, but in the Gospels Jesus said that the meek (mild-tempered ones) shall inherit the Earth. A corresponding promise made to the Israellites (sp?) is referenced, showing that Jehovah God will keep his promises to his people. Also read Rev. Chapter 20, verses 1-6. This refers to the mellinial reign of Christ after the first ressurection for those beheaded for the testimony to Jesus.

    Hopefully this will help you some. These things cannot be explained so easily, as they take time and study to develop conceptually.

    Hope I've helped some. Also, please take what I say with a grain of salt, as it is ONLY my opinion. Some share it, others disagree. I hope that others will comment on this to give you more insight.

    Edited by - ianao on 24 January 2001 11:5:52

  • bsmart
    bsmart

    Verry late to this thread, but if I believed the bible I would mention Psalm 116 and the verse that says

    8 For you, Lord, have delivered me from death,
    my eyes from tears,
    my feet from stumbling,
    9 9 that I may walk before the Lord
    in the land of the living.


    This implies that there is a land of the dead also (at least to me) Of course the Psalm are considered poetic and perhaps that means poetic license was taken.



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