That Magical Number: 2,520

by Quendi 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Quendi

  I wanted to relate this experience I had on Sunday while renewing ties with an old friend. We argued about the meaning of Daniel 4 and Nebuchadnezzar's "tree dream". My friend had insisted this dream told the reader the length of the Gentile Times. I then asked him a simple question. "Mark, can you tell me where the number 2,520 appears in this account? You know Daniel mentions some very specific numbers in his writing: 1,290; 1,335; and 2,300. Where will you find 2,520?" To his utter embarrassment, my friend could not do so.

  He then insisted, "I know it's in the Bible!" "Really," I answered, "Where? Name me one place in Scripture you can find this number." He looked quite frustrated as he thought very hard of where the number might occur. Of course, I know the WTS uses Revelation's equaling the "time, times, and half a time" to 1,260 days and it is on that basis it calculates the length of the "seven times" of Daniel 4. If Mark had gone there, I had an entire battery of arguments ready to shoot that down. But he never made that connection.

  It then hit me that here was a perfect example of the cult's mind control. An assertion is made, usually without any kind of proof or corroboration, and the follower believes it entirely without doing any kind of research or checking for himself. Seeing my friend struggle with a very simple question made me grateful that I had broken free. Comment is certainly invited.

  Quendi
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  wobble

  Well done Quendi ! you are making him (or is it her?) do the work, and making your friend think.

  Even if the jump to Revelation had been made, on what basis ? It had not been written in the time of Daniel, and if "Daniel" had meant a specific number of days, as you say, he would have spelled them out. "Times" is too ambivalent, how many days in a time?

  The justification for saying 360 days in a time by Fred Franz and the WT is just laughable.

  It was reading Daniel without WT specs on, back in early 2007, that made me sit up and think "Hey ! the fulfillment is at the end of the chapter !" , 7 times passed over the King, I realised that 2520 was not in scripture, and therefore 1914 was not a date to be connected with Bible prophecy.

  Very soon the WT house of cards fell down for me, I left, for good, in all senses of the word, in early 2008.

  Let us hope your excellent reasonings and questions lead your friend to make a similar decision.
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  sd-7

  I was just re-reading a bit of 'Gentile Times Reconsidered' after that recent WT article on 607 B.C. It pointed out that basically, this is an assumption, that the seven times equal 2,520 years, which of course follows the assumption that the seven times in Daniel are at all related to the Gentile Times in the first place... Bottom line is, because there's no way to specifically DISPROVE it, it's kind of assumed as true.

  But the thought that this verse has a larger fulfillment requires you to read into the verses something you already want to believe. Reading it objectively, it becomes a story of a king eating humble pie until he realizes that God is Top Dog, Head Honcho, Big Kahuna, Big Cheese, The Main Man, etc.

  But saying that a book written 700 years in the future can be used to unlock some sort of code otherwise unknown to man from this previous book is kind of, well, interesting... I can't believe we've got the Internet and this is all we have to discuss...shows how much cults really suck.

  --sd-7
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  NomadSoul

  You should've mentioned that the 2,520 actually came from John Aquila:

  7 x 7 x 360 = 2,520 days = 2,520 years.

  The funny thing is, 360 days, according to the Watchtower is a Lunar year.

  But to get to 1914 they use 2,520 SOLAR days. LOL Fail.
• 

  wobble

  I think the WT is aware of the length of a lunar year, which is not 360 days, they call 360 days the length of a prophetic year , and as you rightly say, promptly discard it in the 2520 years.

  As another thread put it," however you calculate, end up at 1914"
• 

  LostGeneration

  The WTS insists on this numerology nonesense, putting them in the same boat as a bunch of other bible nutjobs. I started a thread on this a while back:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/188440/1/7-Times-2520-Years-Nut-Jobs-Everywhere

  Basically, the WT doesn't even show up in google for 2520 years until page 3 of the google search results. Jehovah should really do something to get his "prophets" up to page one for this important term.
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  Quendi

  @wobble:

  I can only hope that my friend Mark will think long and hard about the issues we discussed on Sunday. With respect to the method I used to make my points, you are right. The use of questions can accomplish much. Oftentimes, by questioning other parties and putting the burden of proof on them, they begin to see how untenable their position is. I actually learned to do this when I attended the Pioneer Service School. The instructors pointed out that this was something Jesus Christ himself frequently did It also enabled me to stay calm and focused. Mark, on the other hand, found that there were times it was difficult to maintain his equilibrium. I like to think this was because for the first time he was taking a focused look at key WTS teachings.

  The two largest benefits I got from my years as a Witness were attending the Pioneer Service School and regular participation in the Theocratic Ministry School. The training I received has served me well down through the years, and my discussion with Mark was another occasion on which it gave me a crucial advantage.

  Quendi
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  Larsinger58

  Interesting commentary. But FULFILLMENT now is the best means to determine the true interpretation.

  Let's say the 2,520 years was a presumptive interpretation for the 2nd coming. Well, there are two other prophecies pointing to the year of the 2nd coming that can test this.

  1) The 1290 days and the 1335 days. The "end" occurs after 1290 days; that is, the end of the gentile times which ended officially on November 30, 1947. If 1947 is the end of the 1290 days, then the 2nd coming would occur 45 years later in 1992.

  1290 + 45 = 1335

  1947 + 45 = 1992

  If this interpretation is correct, then using the 2520 years should point to the true date for the fall of Jerusalem, thus:

  2520 - 1992 = 528 + 1 = 529 BCE

  So was 529 BCE the true date for the fall of Jerusalem. Per the Bible it is, based on the "70 weeks" prophecy. That prophecy is based on the baptism of Christ in 29 CE and begins 69 weeks earlier, that is, 483 years earlier in 455 BCE. Everybody bsically agrees on tha. What they don't agree on is what actually happened in 455 BCE.

  That's where the VAT4956 comes in. It double-dates year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar to 511 BCE. That means year 19, the year Jerusalem falls, was originally dated to 529 BCE. So the "proof is in the pudding," as they say. The VAT4956 thus forces the 1st of Cyrus to occur in 455 BCE because year 23, the year of the last deportation falls in 525 BCE, which is 70 years earlier than the 1st of Cyrus.

  So it turns out that the 2520-year "theory" is confirmed by the fulfillment. 1992 is exactly 2520 years from 529 BCE, the true date for the fall of Jersusalem.

  SUMMARY: So in summary, since at this time most time-chronology prophecies have been fulfilled, we can retrospectively test their correct interpretation. In this case, the true date for the fall of Jerusalem in 529 BCE, as confirmed by the VAT4956, dates the 2nd coming in 1992 which did occur and which also fulfills the 1335 days, 45 years after the "end" of the gentile times in 1947.

  Depending upon the prophecy, though, "a time, times and half a time" so far can have several different meanings, including:

  a) 42 months or 43 months

  b) 1260 days or 1290 days

  c) three and a half years; or

  d) three and a half days.

  "Interpretation belongs to God."

  LS
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  AnnOMaly

  The funny thing is, 360 days, according to the Watchtower is a Lunar year.

  LOL. A 360-day year a schematic year of 12 x 30 months (Leolaia's written on this somewhere ---> e.g. HERE).

  A lunar month is about 29.5 days long so a lunar year would be 12 x 29.5 = 354 days; a lunar year with an intercalary (to help periodically sync the lunar year with the 365 day solar year) would be 13 x 29.5 = 383.5 days.
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  OnTheWayOut

  The 3.5 times bringing them to 1914 came after they hitched their wagons to 1914. No matter the math, it had to arrive at 1914. The best way to realize that was to discover how they forgot there was no year "Zero" and did not change to 1915, but changed the start year to 607 B.C.E. .

  It's a shame that most JW's are not the least bit interested in learning the math. Just throw flashy equations out there and the masses must just accept that WTS knows what they are talking about.