Do you blame Judas. (page 3)

sabastious

Predestination is a time travel paradox.

-Sab

Since God is NOT subject to time as we know it ( past, present and future are not time frames for God as they are for us), then God's foreknowing of anything doesn't have anythng to do with controlling or eliminating freewill.

As for "predestined" and such terms, we mustn't make too much of how writers word things to make the story more interesting.

If God has predestined ALL then there is no free will at all, if God has predestined some that doesn't mean they have NO CHOICE, just that they were selected for certain "roles", the choice is still theirs.

I can be predestined by my father to take over the family business, even breed and trained for it, the choice of whether to do it is still mine.

MrFreeze

So God chose Judas up to do it and trained him as your example suggests and yet it is 100% Judas' fault? Im not buying that.

Lore

OK well there's a quantum uncertainty principle that's in play in scenario number 2 which apparently makes impossible to predict the distant future based on the current state it's in. Unfortunately I don't understand that so I'm gonna pretend it's not a problem.

So for the sake of simplicity lets pretend god copy/pasted the universe and fast-forwarded it to see what was going to happen in this one and it works.

I'm of the opinion that, if this is possible, it means that all our thoughts and actions are the inevitable result of the arrangement of atoms at the beginning of the universe.

If you've ever played conways game of life you can get an idea of how the specific arrangement of atoms early on will always result in the same inevitable outcome unless there are some truly random events or outside influence later on.

What this all means is that everything you do, even though it might feel to you as if you have free will in the matter, is all the direct result of how god arranged the atoms in the beginning. Whether he knew it at the time or not, he was predetermining EVERYTHING when he first made the universe.

This is why I say that free will is an illusion in that scenario. The only way things can happen any differently is if a really random event happens, or if god intervenes and changes something. But then after that random event or divine interevention, everything is 'predetermined' again.

But if truely random events DO happen without God's intervention, then the whole idea of him being able to predict the future falls apart.

tec

It can be a conundrum, Lore, I agree :)

(I know nothing about atoms and quantum uncertainties, etc, so I won't comment on those!)

Christ had the will to do as he pleased. He could have refused to lay down his life, especially since he knew it was coming, he could have avoided it. But he chose to do His father's will, instead of His own. There are those who choose the opposite, but I think God can see and make provisions for that.

If there is no free will, then nothing we do matters at all. God might know what we're going to do, because he knows what is in us.

Peace,

Tammy

fallen_princess

This is one of the teachings of the Gnostics (as in: Early Christians). They believed according to the Gospel of Judas that he was in fact the closest disciple to Jesus. In the gospel according to Judas (there are something like 30 gospels that were left out of the bible) he was priveleged enough to recieve secret information about the details of heaven. In the gospel, Jesus TOLD him to go to the Romans so that Jesus could fulfill his destiny. When the Disciples sat down to the last supper, Jesus told him to go do what he had to do, and he DID. He was actually a huge part in the passion and a hero amongst the Gnostics. Its so sad that Judas was the basis for so much anti-semitism in history.

PSacramento

So God chose Judas up to do it and trained him as your example suggests and yet it is 100% Judas' fault? Im not buying that.

I din't say God did anything of the sort, it was an anology that happens in the real world we all live in.

God may have chosen Judas to be the instrument of Christ's atoning sacrfice for us ALL and Maybe Judas was aware of that, we don't know.

How did the apostles view Judas and his betrayal?

Well:

Matt:

The Suicide of Judas

(Acts 1:18–19)

3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus a was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 He said, “I have sinned by betraying innocent b blood.” But they said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” 5 Throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself. 6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since they are blood money.” 7 After conferring together, they used them to buy the potter’s field as a place to bury foreigners. 8 For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken through the prophet Jeremiah, c “And they took d the thirty pieces of silver, the price of the one on whom a price had been set, e on whom some of the people of Israel had set a price, 10 and they gave f them for the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

Mark:

43 Immediately, while he was still speaking, Judas, one of the twelve, arrived; and with him there was a crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders. 44 Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying, “The one I will kiss is the man; arrest him and lead him away under guard.” 45 So when he came, he went up to him at once and said, “Rabbi!” and kissed him. 46 Then they laid hands on him and arrested him. 47 But one of those who stood near drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 48 Then Jesus said to them, “Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest me as though I were a bandit? 49 Day after day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not arrest me. But let the scriptures be fulfilled.” 50 All of them deserted him and fled.

51 A certain young man was following him, wearing nothing but a linen cloth. They caught hold of him, 52 but he left the linen cloth and ran off naked.

Luke:

47 While he was still speaking, suddenly a crowd came, and the one called Judas, one of the twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him; 48 but Jesus said to him, “Judas, is it with a kiss that you are betraying the Son of Man?” 49 When those who were around him saw what was coming, they asked, “Lord, should we strike with the sword?” 50 Then one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. 51 But Jesus said, “No more of this!” And he touched his ear and healed him. 52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple police, and the elders who had come for him, “Have you come out with swords and clubs as if I were a bandit? 53 When I was with you day after day in the temple, you did not lay hands on me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness!”

John:( who called Judas a thief):

18 After Jesus had spoken these words, he went out with his disciples across the Kidron valley to a place where there was a garden, which he and his disciples entered. 2 Now Judas, who betrayed him, also knew the place, because Jesus often met there with his disciples. 3 So Judas brought a detachment of soldiers together with police from the chief priests and the Pharisees, and they came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 Then Jesus, knowing all that was to happen to him, came forward and asked them, “Whom are you looking for?” 5 They answered, “Jesus of Nazareth.” a Jesus replied, “I am he.” b Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. 6 When Jesus c said to them, “I am he,” d they stepped back and fell to the ground. 7 Again he asked them, “Whom are you looking for?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.” e 8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. f So if you are looking for me, let these men go.” 9 This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken, “I did not lose a single one of those whom you gave me.” 10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it, struck the high priest’s slave, and cut off his right ear. The slave’s name was Malchus. 11 Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword back into its sheath. Am I not to drink the cup that the Father has given me?”

And ACTS:

15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers d (together the crowd numbered about one hundred twenty persons) and said, 16 “Friends, e the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit through David foretold concerning Judas, who became a guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17 for he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.” 18 (Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong, f he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19 This became known to all the residents of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms,

‘Let his homestead become desolate,

and let there be no one to live in it’;

and

‘Let another take his position of overseer.’

Band on the Run

Judas is quite the hero in Last Temptation of Christ and Jesus Christ Superstar. This past year I wrote a tome on Judas. Most the book was about art portrayls of Judas changed over time and antiSemitism. Judas became THE JEW, while the other Jewish apostles were considered born CHRISTIAN.

God cannot condemn him if he had no free will. It makes no sense. Judas should be celebrated more than James, Paul, or Peter. So many Bible stories make no sense if you think about them for more than a few minutes. Jesus told him to go ahead. Certainly, he had a responsibility to prevent Judas from being damned. Very strange.

factfinder

Yes- Judas is responsible for his decision. The prophecy said one would betray Judas but it did not predestine him. It could have been any of them- Judas was greedy-he did what was in his heart.

Band on the Run

The scriptures repeatedly show that Judas believed Jesus had a duty to the poor of Israel. He was a concerned steward of the Christian funds. Evidently, he was selected or elected to make certain the communal funds were not wasted on silly things. If you do not share the apocalyptic world of Jesus, spending money for precious oils to anoint Jesus is a crummy use of money compared to feeding the starving poor. Feeding the poor is consistent with Jesus' miracles and teachings. The money from the Temple officials does not seem the decisive role.

Judas and Jesus are seen as opposites. The NT reports Judas as a strong, zealous advocate. He is not a people-pleaser with Jesus but he is still a believer. What a coincidence that Judas betrayed him. Jesus wanted the betrayl. A simple, private discussion with Judas would have dissuaded Judas. One of out of only twelve is bad odds for eternal damnation. Sometimes I wonder if people here read the same account.

I did not write a tome on Judas. I read a tome. Judas as the bad, unfaithful Jew was not seen by his comtemporaries. The linking of Jesus' death with a Jew (as though Jesus was not Jewish and did not worship a Jewish god) inflamed later Christianity with distrastrous impact. Pictorial portrayls changed over time. Peter was every bit as Jewish, as was Saul. The other apostles prePentecost do not stand out as men of knowledge, insight, or action. Judas had to have a special place within the community. I believe Judas' sin was forgiven by Jesus who knew temptation.

Do you blame Judas.

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