Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

by AllTimeJeff 95 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  AllTimeJeff

  Sorry to bring this turd of a thread back, but I realized something as I re-read the posts here, especially my wonderful give and take with Sulla, the awesome Trinitarian.

  First of all, Sulla is right, I brought up a thread about how dumb it is to argue the Trinity, then I go ahead and argue about it. Think of me what you will for that.

  But in the past, esp since I have left JW's, I have done my best to be "fair" toward differing viewpoints. In speaking to this, I can say that while I (obviously) do not believe in anything having to do with the Trinity (for non-theological reasons, thanks for asking), I don't begrudge anyone for believing it.

  My argument with Sulla was two seperate arguments. Sulla (it seems) was not arguing on my "turf", which is the reasonableness of worshiping Jesus either monotheistically or in a triune method. I don't care about that. To me, Jesus was just a man at best.

  Trinitarians and monotheistic Christians need to play in their own field when I am not there. It's a game of ping pong that I am not invited too. I feel that Sulla was trying to say that there are superior Trinitarian arguments out there, and to many JW's who only know the Trinity from that damn brochure, that is true. JW's DO NOT represent the Trinity honestly, so that is a fair argument and discussion to have. I just can't play.

  Sulla can't play on my turf though. That is to say, it is my belief that Jesus isn't a god at all, no matter what theological tack you take.

  Fair enough?

  My other point is, I don't apologize for not liking Sulla's style. I am tired of pretending that I agree with and like everybody, and that I have to find common ground . I don't.

  I can acknowledge your belief, but I can think it is what it is, which is stupid. You could tell me that you raised Sasquatch and that you have a superior argument, should I believe you because you have a strong belief?

  Thought so.

  I wish Sulla would kiss Shamus or something.

  Having said that, yeah, I argued the Trinity in a thread I created about how stupid it is to argue the Trinity. Thanks for noticing. ;)
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  WontLeave

  Actually, trinitarians are the most notorious for changing the definition of trinity. It's a weasely doctrine that is harder to pin down than tomato soup, because it varies from denomination to denomination, church to church, individual to individual, and moment to moment. Just when they say something you can destroy with Scripture, they change what the words they used mean and deny they actually said what they just said. Show them the definition of trinity, as set by the Athanasian Creed and not a single trinitarian will agree that's what they believe. This definition (the real definition of the trinity) is what the Society uses. The churches have given up trying to push that ridiculous pile and have changed to some ever-morphing definition. No two trinitarians believe the same thing. Hell, no ONE trinitarian believes the same thing. That's why you can't argue with them. Every time you prove them wrong, their position changes in some 1984 way to have always been something other than what you just demonstrated is Scripturally impossible. And I'm not the first to notice this.

  Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. If it could be understood it would not answer their purpose. Their security is in their faculty of shedding darkness, like the scuttlefish, thro' the element in which they move, and making it impenetrable to the eye of a pursuing enemy, and there they will skulk. - Thomas Jefferson
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  TTWSYF

  Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time?

  Easy answer. Because those here who deny the trinity will not even acknowledge the scriptural proofs that totally contridict THEIR beliefs. And rather than trying to reason away the scriptural proofs, they simply ignore them and hope that they go away. When these proofs are not addressed, these people think that they can just continue to lie to themselves. And they do with other like minded, brain washed burnouts.

  There are many here who claim to know the WTS is full of crap, but at least they got the trinity thing right. What crap.

  What scriptural truths am I talking about? Well there are too many for me to list here, but I give some examples of scriptures that make these anti trinitarians throw other scriptures up and never, ever address the very valid scriptures in question.

  IE Isaih 9;6 Young's Literal Translation
  For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

  Now some moron will write "see, it says mighty god, not almighty god' Let me answer that reply now. This states explcitly that Jesus is God.

  Another common bs argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God. Well scripture states the opposite doesn't it?

  ie John 5;18 Young's Literal Translation
  because of this, then, were the Jews seeking the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the sabbath, but he also called God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

  Notice the bible states that Jesus was making himself equal to God, not they 'thought' he was making himself equal to God. Another one is

  ie John 10;33 Young's Literal Translation
  The Jews answered him, saying, 'For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'

  Pretty plain to see that the Jews with Jesus knew what he was saying, but these WTS 'bible students' can't understand the plain truth written explicitly and clearly.

  An answer to the 1+1+1=3 thing could be explained like this - past+present+future=time. Sure you can have a 'block' of time by removing any one or two of the past, present or future, but you would not have the fullness of time, would you?

  Don't want to leave too long of a post, but I agree, debates with this crowd is one sided.

  respectfully,

  dc
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  botchtowersociety

  Sorry to bring this turd of a thread back, but I realized something as I re-read the posts here, especially my wonderful give and take with Sulla, the awesome Trinitarian.

  First of all, Sulla is right, I brought up a thread about how dumb it is to argue the Trinity, then I go ahead and argue about it. Think of me what you will for that.

  I wholeheartedly agree with you. It was, indeed, stupid and contradictory on your part. In the very thread-starting post where you say you won't argue the about the Trinity, you argue about the Trinity. That was very sloppy thinking, and it is good that you finally came around to realizing your lack of logic and coherence, although admittedly it took far too long from a superior intellect molded and honed in the Watchtower's top school. But perhaps the humbling experience won't be a total waste of your time or ours, since I found it enlightening myself.
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  AllTimeJeff

  That was very sloppy thinking, and it is good that you finally came around to realizing your lack of logic and coherence, although admittedly it took far too long from a superior intellect molded and honed in the Watchtower's top school. But perhaps the humbling experience won't be a total waste of your time or ours, since I found it enlightening myself.

  BTS, if you found it enlightening, then clearly, I aimed too low. I hope that my humbling experience will be the impetus you need to go from humble servant of Christ to self righteous servant of Christ. Oh wait... never mind on that one.

  If you cared to be the least bit charitable, then you will see several comments herin where I clearly aimed my comments at Sulla and not Trinitarians in general. I would have happily included you in my disdain had you involved yourself earlier.

  Needless to say, you took my attempt at honesty here and have tried to turn it into one more churlish attempt in showing your superiority. So please let me say that the following observation about you has nothing to do with your belief in the Trinity; You are a jackass.

  The fact that you, Sulla and others feel superior in believing the Trinity is quite alright with me though. Have fun!
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  botchtowersociety

  Dear AllTimeJeff, I am a careful student of your superiority and condescension. I assure you, it has naught to do with the form in which a divinity is conceived to exist, or even whether or not it exists. I follow your online career assiduously, and eagerly look forward to future installments.

  Carry on!
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  AllTimeJeff

  Dear AllTimeJeff, I am a careful student of your superiority and condescension. I assure you, it has naught to do with the form in which a divinity is conceived to exist, or even whether or not it exists. I follow your online career assiduously, and eagerly look forward to future installments.

  Dear BTS,

  Get a hobby. I'm not impressed.
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  botchtowersociety

  It's OK. I don't pretend to be able to impress you, your ATJness.
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  Sulla

  Just noticed this response by ATJ. It would be impolite not to acknowledge Jeff's belated and, no doubt, difficult admission that I was entirely correct. Since he invites people to think what they will, I'll share what I think. I think it was stupid and that the stupidity was prolonged by further levels of stupidity. But Jeff does seem to have seen his mistake and come to admit it, so he is more of a stand-up guy than he needed to be. Not sure why he felt the need to start another thread where he calls me out by name, but there it is.

  Jeff: My other point is, I don't apologize for not liking Sulla's style. I am tired of pretending that I agree with and like everybody, and that I have to find common ground . I don't.

  Great point! That's why I never spend a minute pretending that I like everybody. See, Jeff, you agree with me about plenty of things...

  Jeff: The fact that you, Sulla and others feel superior in believing the Trinity is quite alright with me though. Have fun!

  Hmm. You know what? I think it really does bother you. I think it bothers you so much that you won't shut the hell up about it. I think you just started another thread where you talk about how much it doesn't bother you. I think you commented on another thread where you called me out by name on this exact issue.

  I think you're obsessed with it and can't stop thinking about it. And the E V I D E N C E supports that view.
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  AllTimeJeff

  Thanks for sharing your opinion of me Sulla. Duly noted.