by Wonderment 41 Replies latest watchtower bible
possible-san:
The Greek literally says: ‘that she may be fearing the man’ - Concordant Greek Text.
"hina phobetai" is a present passive subjunctive. Thus, the rendering, "should have deep respect for her husband," reflects the Greek text well.
The words may, might and should are commonly used to translate the Greek subjunctive, as the link you provided shows.
By the way, my copy of NIV shows the following reading: "and the wife must respect her husband."
I remember a lady who lived down the street from us in Dallas who we were witnessing one hot September afternoon and my partner quoted that scripture in Eph 5. She was obviously a very strong willed woman and after we did our presentation, she retorted "I do have deep respect for my husband, but that don't stop me from knocking the shit out of his silly self when he is out of line."
We said our goodbyes and left quickly.
Wonderment.
Thank you for your reply.
Well, since I do not speak English, it is difficult to express Greek technical terms in English.
The Greek literally says: ‘that she may be fearing the man’ - Concordant Greek Text.
Probably, this English expression is not telling everything about the Greek meanings.
Since I do not speak English, I don't know whether I can express the proper English, but the Greek word "hina" expresses a "wish" and means "I wish you to do it" (I wish you would respect your husband).
Moreover, as you quoted, the meaning of Greek word "phobeetai" is "she may be fearing."
In this case, there are a possibility and freedom that she does not fear/respect for her husband.
I think that you have ignored that.
"hina phobetai" is a present passive subjunctive. Thus, the rendering, "should have deep respect for her husband," reflects the Greek text well.
I do not understand your word "Thus."
Are you emphasizing the part "passive voice"?
Would you explain in more detail?
Well, the Greek word "phobeetai" is a verb.
Is "deep respect" in the NWT a verb?
possible
"As it did 2000 years ago?"
EDIT....What happened to my insightful post ????
I cannot be bothered to do it all again..sorry
Blues Brother: Try again.
possible san: "Thus" is like saying: therefore, consequently, along these lines, so, hence, etc.
"Phobetai" is a verb in the subjunctive mood (passive; middle, some) which implies: potentiality, uncertainty, prediction, obligation, and desire. (Hewett, p. 5) Don't confuse this mood with the "optative" mood, the mood of wish, not used much in Hellenistic Greek.
"Passive" denotes a characteristic of a verb which indicates the relationship between the subject and the verbal action. "Active" voice = the subject performs the action... I hear. Middle voice: I hear myself. "Passive" voice = I am being heard. Basically, this is what "passive" is, but there are other explanations in the realm of Grammars, such as: simple passive, permissive passive, primary agency, secondary agency, instrumental agency, and so forth.
The idea of phobeo (from which phobetai derives) here is to have a profound measure of respect for one's husband. It also assumes that the husband will so love his wife as to be worthy of such deference.
At Eph 5:33, Paul is not expressing just a simple wish, but by using hina with phobetai and the other words, it becomes kind of a practical imperative.
Wonderment.
"Thus" is like saying: therefore, consequently, along these lines, so, hence, etc.
Thanks.
But I did not question you about the meaning of that word "Thus".Therefore, probably, I was not able to understand your explanation, even if you used the word "therefore""so."
Once again, I quote your words.
"hina phobetai" is a present passive subjunctive. Thus, the rendering, "should have deep respect for her husband," reflects the Greek text well.
I tried to say, "there is no logic/logical in your explanation, and therefore, it is meaningless."
Furthermore, you emphasized in italics the word "passive."
You explain nothing about this.
And, you also ignored my question regarding the NWT.
At Eph 5:33, Paul is not expressing just a simple wish, but by using hina with phobetai and the other words, it becomes kind of a practical imperative.
I think that this your explanation is right/correct.
But, this is NOT the "imperative mood."
Therefore, I think that the meanings of the original word will completely disappear if it is translated into "should", IMO.
Probably, there are various expressions, even when you give order to someone.
For instance, ...
"Respect your husband, please."
"I want you to respect your husband."
"Will you respect your husband? "
"Would you respect your husband?".
I think that that (Eph 5:33) is the reticent/moderate instruction/request to wives by Paul.
possible
Well I do think that men should have the last word. They should always say..."Yes, Dear"
possible-san:
Wonderment said: At Eph 5:33, Paul is not expressing just a simple wish, but by using hina with phobetai with the other words, it becomes kind of a practical imperative.
possible-san said: I think that this your explanation is right/correct. But, this is NOT the "imperative mood."
Therefore, I think that the meanings of the original word will completely disappear if it is translated into "should", IMO.
My answer to u: Yes, I know that hina phobetai at Eph. 5:33 is not strictly an imperative mood. However, the combination usage of hina with phobetai in the subjunctive mood becomes in a way, an imperative.
A Greek Grammar of the NT...: "387...(3) As a substitute for the imperative, in addition to the subjunctive...hina with the subjunctive is also occasionally employed...E[phesians] 5:33 (after agapáto) he de gune hina phobetai ton andra..." (Blass &Debrunner, Robert W. Funk, p. 195)
The Expositor's Greek Testament (under Eph 5:33):
"The change in the construction from the usual imperative to the form hina phobetai is explained by some by supplying Blepéto, as Blépete stands in v. 15. But hina with the conj. is used elsewhere in the NT (Mark v. 23; 2 Cor. Viii. 7) as an imperative formula, originally no doubt an elliptical form for ‘I bid you that you do,' or, ‘see you that you do' . It occurs also in later Greek prose (e.g. Arrian, Epict., iv.m I, 41) as the corresponding formula hópos is used in the same way in classical Greek with the fut. indic. (Aristoph., Nubes, 823) and more occasionally with the conj. (Xen., Cyr., i., 3,18) [...] phobetai, fear, in the sense of reverence, spontaneous, obedient regard; cf. the frequent application of the verb to the fear of God (Luke i.50, xviii. 2, 4; Acts x. 2, 22, 35, etc.); and its use in the case of Herod (Mark vi. 20)." (Edited by W. Robertson Nicoll, Vol. 3, pp. 374-75)
A Grammatical Aid to the Greek NT: "Hina phobetai is parallel with the imperative agapáto (cf. R994, Eph. 4:29..." by Dr. Robert Hanna, p. 356.
As to your objection to "should" you said:Therefore, I think that the meanings of the original word will completely disappear if it is translated into "should", IMO.
Not really!It is one good way to express what Paul was exhorting. Various grammarians explain phobetai in the "passive" voice (where the subject receives the action of the verb), or as a "middle" voice (the action of a verse in the middle voice in some way affects the subject) or as passive deponent. (Deponent=a verb that is middle or passive in form but active in meaning.) A grammarian, Mounce, explains the middle voice can be "difficult" to deal with or explain.
"deep" is variously used as an adjective, noun or adverb, not a verb. And "respect" can be used as a noun or verb, and even as an adverb, respectfully. The NWT uses a helping verb "have" to get the intended message through... "the wife should have respect for her husband." Many translations ADD words here for a smoother English. Notice below how other versions deal with this verse: NIV: However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
New Living Translation: So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
New American Standard Bible: Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
International Standard Version: But each individual man among you must love his wife as he loves himself; and may the wife fear her husband.
GOD'S WORD Translation: But every husband must love his wife as he loves himself, and wives should respect their husbands.Montgomery NT: ...and the wife, on her part, should reverence her husband.
Simplified Bible: The wife should respect her husband.
Analytical Literal NT: but the wife, that she should be respecting her husband.
An Understandable Version: And the wife should respect her husband.
Darby Bible Translation: But ye also, every one of you, let each so love his own wife as himself; but as to the wife [I speak] that she may fear the husband.
Bible in Basic English: But do you, everyone, have love for his wife, even as for himself; and let the wife see that she has respect for her husband.
Wonderment.
Thank you for replying.
Well, although it seems that you have a ability to investigate Greek, there is no persuasiveness in your explanation. (I feel
A Greek Grammar of the NT...: "387...(3) As a substitute for the imperative, in addition to the subjunctive...hina with the subjunctive is also occasionally employed...E[phesians] 5:33 (after agapáto) he de gune hina phobetai ton andra..." (Blass &Debrunner, Robert W. Funk, p. 195)
Thank you for quoting.
Well, my assertion is clear.
That Greek word "phobeetai" is NOT the "imperative mood" clearly.
Therefore, strictly speaking, that is not imperative sentence.
You quoted like this first, "she may be fearing."
I showed you the examples that is used like an imperative/command in English, although it is not the imperative mood.
("I want you to respect your husband."
"Will you respect your husband? "
"Would you respect your husband?")
The Apostle Paul did not use the "imperative mood."
He avoided carefully using the "imperative mood."Although it seems like an imperative, if it is translated into "should/must", it will not be conveyed that "Paul did avoid carefully using the imperative mood."
Not really!It is one good way to express what Paul was exhorting. Various grammarians explain phobetai in the "passive" voice (where the subject receives the action of the verb), or as a "middle" voice (the action of a verse in the middle voice in some way affects the subject) or as passive deponent. (Deponent=a verb that is middle or passive in form but active in meaning.) A grammarian, Mounce, explains the middle voice can be "difficult" to deal with or explain.
I cannot understand your explanation at all.
First, if it is as your explanation, it is not "Paul was exhorting."
Rather, your assertion is "imperative."
And your explanation about "voice" is meaningless.
I quote your words once again.
"hina phobetai" is a present passive subjunctive. Thus, the rendering, "should have deep respect for her husband," reflects the Greek text well.
First, you did emphasize "passive."
Second, you said, "Thus."
And, you did defend the NWT.
You explain nothing about this.
With regard to the "passive deponent", it is what I wanted to point out regarding your mistake.
possible
possible-san:
You are right. I need to improve my communication. However, I feel you have ignored the bible versions I cited that reflects Paul's strong exhortation at Eph. 5:33. I never said that Paul used a strict imperative, but a "substitute" imperative, or as a grammarian calls it, "a practical imperative." Why use that instead of a straight imperative?
Perhaps, because it is kinder to say, "the wife should have deep respect* for her husband," instead of saying: "Fear your husbands!" Which sounds better? In English, we adapt our approach all the time when we give advice to others, so as not to sound too harsh. Hey, who wants to get a woman upset? I think that is what Paul did here. I never said either that the NWT was the best rendering. I did say the NWT rendering at Eph 5:33 for hina phobetai reflects the Greek well. Other translations do as well. Check the list again.
(*Literally: in order that she may be fearing the man)
