How many on JWN still trapped in Org. & will it get easier with time?

by Kensho 18 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Kensho

  Thank you for all the fine suggestions and comments, just a couple of points, many have suggested I try to slowly convince my wife to see the “light” and just use the Bible and not any WT literature and eventually she may come around. Good idea except I have been moving more to Deism in my beliefs and do not have any faith in any “holy” books or organized religion, although I do believe in a Creator.

  Erbie's comments are on target with how I feel

  “The only advice I could offer, if indeed we should give advice in such matters, is DO NOT destroy the faith of you wife. I am in no way implying that this is your intention but if you did she would not thank you for it but would still resent you long after the seven headed beast has descended in the the pits of doom.”

  The truth of the matter is my wife is very happy as a JW and it would wipe her out if I was successful in pulling her out.

  When I gave a public talk I always included the statement “ If this is not God's organization – then he doesn’t have one”

  well I never thought I would be promoting the latter.

  I am a prisoner in a prison that I decided to enter in 1974 and now I really see the bars of the cell that I never noticed before because I bought into the fantasy and blindly followed a group of men that started a very successful movement and an extremely efficient security system of elders, CO's, DO's and fellow inmates to keep people in with no hope of escape without destroying other lives.

  I guess I will fade as much as possible and end up like several in our cong. That are just “there” no one expects anything of them. Wow when serving as an elder I considered them spiritual deadbeats and couldn't figure them out-now I know and have joined them in silent protest.

  Kensho
• 

  Mary

  Your situation sounds eerily like Gumby's a former long time poster on this board. After being out for 13 years, he caved and went and got reinstated in 2007 so that his family would treat him like a human being. From what he's described, it does not get any easier with time. If anything, it gets worse because the Organization is becoming more and more controlling all the time. Once the blinders have been stripped away, you can't really go back through the Looking Glass, because you know full well that the entire religion is nothing more than a high-control book publishing cult.

  I understand the difficulty you are facing. No one should have to chose between their family, life-long friends and their beliefs, but that's exactly what this stinking rotten religion enforces on many. So it sounds like eventually you may have to chose between your friends and wife and your own sanity and peace of mind.
• 

  QuitWastingTIME

  I would tend to agree with LeavingWT, Kensho. You must have regular interactions with your wife. You and I have had several Private Message communications and in those, you have admitted that your wife and yourself tend to spend a lot of time apart and that she's many times audibly resented that. You've said that she resents how much time you spend in your own world and that pretty much the only time you two spend together is going to meetings or pretty much doing anything "theocratic". I'm afraid, my friend, that this configuration is not condusive to helping her out at all, nor will it help if you ever DO get outted. There is a certain psyche to a woman (to everyone really) and my guess is that subconciously she has associated her initial love for you with her love for the Organization. After all, you mentioned that you were once very active and influential in it.

  The only way you could survive is to appeal to her human, her woman. While I was in the organization, I realized the difference in metrics there is when it comes to dating in the Borg, and dating in the real world. In the Borg, you don't appeal to the human in your prospective mate. You shy away from sexually exciting conversations, from talking about traveling and doing exciting things. You do most everything on an intellectual level, a "spiritual" level. In the real world, you use charm, sex, and a lot of passion to create a bond. In the real world there is no nonsense of "you love Jehovah so much, therefore I love you" which is why in the real world you can get couples of differing faith to marry. In the real world dating/marriage scenario, either mate can lose their "faith" and STILL be in love with the other because that love was real, based on human attraction, not some crazy weird "spiritual alignment" attraction. Do you understand what I mean?

  My advice to you is to read The Player's Handbook (sorry, ladies! lol Actually, I recommend all mothers to share the player's handbook with their daughters) and start cultivating a hardcore physical and EMOTIONAL attraction, a HUMAN attraction. This will be a proactive effort on your part and will take a lot of time away from WATCHING FOOTBALL, news, or whatever it is you do in your personal life. You sound conflicted, friend, and I only wish to help you and others in the same situation. The spouse is usually the toughest thing to deal with in a situation like this, and I'll always say the same thing: get him/her to love you more than he/she loves the Watchtower, and you'll see how easy it is to get them to choose. Case in point: ADAM AND EVE. Adam chose Eve because Eve was REAL to Adam and spent a lot of time with him while God was away doing... well, God knows what. It's programming and conditioning, Effendi. You've obviously allowed the WT to program your wife more effectively than you have. And I don't mean it in a bad way, like, "PROGRAM YOUR WIFE" in a Stepford Wives sort of way, but you get my meaning. If you don't spend quality time with your wife, and she's spending more time dreaming about how good the governing body is to her and constantly giving her love notes in the form of Watchtowers, etc etc, well, is it any wonder she'll fantasize more about them and the "new world" than you?

  Ok, I'm done. Anyone feel free to converse this with me. I hope I've ignited a few sparks.

  And like I always say:

  QuitWastingTime
• 

  flipper

  KENSHO- I empathize with you my friend. I was married 19 years to a fanatic JW woman who loved the WT organization more than me. As Leaving WT said and I second his comment , it is very important I believe to read Steve Hassan's two books - " Combatting Cult Mind Control " & " Releasing the Bonds - Empowering People to Think for Themselves ". Until you read those two books it's very difficult to understand HOW the WT society is using different techniques to entrap your wife and other JW's. Once you understand that- you can formulate a plan like Hassan's second book mentions " Releasing the Bonds ".

  Quitwastingtime's very interesting and good post included some of what Steve Hassan mentions - not only appealing to your wife' s passion and authentic personality, but try to involve her in non-Witness activities and hobbies. Think hard about what kind of activities your wife enjoys OUTSIDE of Jehovah's Witnesses. It can be anything. Does she enjoy shopping ? Walking ? Bike riding ? Tennis ? Watching movies ? Whatever it is as long as it doesn't involve the JW religion- get busy and take an active part with her in enjoying doing those things together that will bring you two closer to each other in an authentic, human way - not a cult way. So if you can get more of your wife's experiences to start involving actual life activities to keep her busy in reality - then it may start chipping away at how devoted she is to the JW mindset as she replaces it gradually with real life enjoyable activities. This is some of what Steve Hassan mentions in his books . Good luck to you. Remember we are here for you my friend
• 

  oompa

  kensho it will be a wild ride either way....but i was dying inside....i wanted to scream out BULLSHIT....over and over at the meetings.....it just ate at me....my costs have been huge and still continue....but there is a freedom i also really enjoy too....and being true to myself....but at fifty the costs and the loss are enourmous for a fourth gen born in.....oompa

  and welcome erbie...and you are so right on and i know because i did every fukkin thing you warned not to do....and it drove her deeper and deeper in.....
• 

  Anony Mous

  Hi, don't make my mistake and just quit. I almost lost my wife and newborn and had to go through a mental breakdown to get things back on track.

  Anyway, quit whatever you're doing in the congregation. Tell them you're stressed out or getting too old or whatever. You're doing the right thing. Tell your wife how relieved you feel now that this load is off your shoulders. Tell her about the judicial committee's and the long hours and that you need to get it off your heart. Tell her how you felt the load of Jesus was no longer light and that you don't think you should've had the authority to judge and how it REALLY works (the backstabbing, the democracy, the politics)

  Tell your wife you want to do more as a family, whatever interest that may be.

  Have (as said) a family study based on the Bible, show her how Acts really should be interpreted and the verses mentioned above, start somewhere there and work towards it. If she's sensitive esp. about women's issues, you could also later go into Leviticus, Judges (eg. 19 & 20) and ask why all the slaughtering was necessary for God.
• 

  oompa

  dead on anony mous.....and also a welcome to kensho....and unfortunately i also went through a very tough mental spell....and guys i kind of did what you guys said to do at first....see i did not try to fade it just happened....i had doubted for years and quit being a mini sevrve and had refused every attempt to make me an elder....and i was always slack in service once i was done with peing a pioner....god that word sounds so stupid now lol!....

  so in the beginning i did a nice slow fade without realizing it....only the few years did i screw up....just became so frustrated that she is so close minded that she WILL NOT allow herself to even think about thinking about the possibility it is not the truth....im talking the type that puts her fingers in her ears and out loud prays.....jehovah help me...jehovah help me....and afterwards i had to tell her just because i no longer believe something does not mean i have a fukkin demon in me!!! REALLY?!?!?!?!?....and that i am not mentally diseased either....well...not so sure about that last one actually

  and as my doubts grew stronger and stronger i just could not bear to put that suit on....or go in service hell....or go to many meetings....and when i did i was either outside or in the library making all the elders and most others nervous! elder even asked me to use library after meeting and i just told him i am so forgetful that i have to look stuff up right away lol....

  so basically i was losing faith.....and i did less and less and so accidently faded.....because i could just not believe anymore.....and they did NOTHING really.....they had no answers so of course i am an apostate...IE SANE!................oompa
• 

  Kensho

  QWT

  Well you almost sound like some kind of "expert" in the area of relationships and marriage (sarcasm intended) You do make some good points , but are missing a couple of real life situations.

  1) my wife was already programed by the Org. long before we met and she truly loves her God Jehovah and would never leave her friends and the cong. by some slick deprogramming moves on my part. Remember her training comes from the experts at the HQ and because of some attempts on my part already to test the waters and get her to think,the witness apostate red flag goes up and it's run to the elders time. That would not be good wright now as you know.

  She will have to come to conclusions on her own as I believe most “thinking” witnesses will eventually do as the end never seems to get here, and for "us" to survive relationship wise it will have to be her opening the door, otherwise as was stated earlier she will always blame me for her losses.

  2) she fell "in love" with the person she met, namely a very active reg. pioneer climbing the theocractic ladder to elder and once there did not like the time commitment but put up with it because she is well programed to "sacrifice" for Jehovah and in the org. having your husband an elder is as much status you will ever get in their world. (weird)

  3) my wife has very limited knowledge the person I was prior to entering WT prison and to say that I can make this radical change in belief and persona is somehow going to swoon her to follow me out of the WTBS is just plain wishful thinking, she fell for a die hard fanatic JW and that is all she has ever known and for her to look at my changes and love this now apostate man she is living with would amount to adultery as if she actually was seeing another man.

  4)you can't compare other marriages outside the Org. their religious beliefs basically mean nothing and require nothing and it is not usually an issue for two people of different religious backgrounds to coexist unless one decides to become a JW, because as you know the org. is very demanding an requires you put everything below service to them including your marriage. I never heard of a divorce because the husband or wife became or quit being methodist for example, but I have seen it many times in wt. world.

  4) I can't relate to the Adam & Eve situation- as I have always thought of that as being just what it is a FAIRYTALE and one that does not end with "and they lived happily ever after"

  PS,

  I don't need to read The Players handbook as I wrote it before becoming a witness! LoL

  I'm sure you & I will discuss this further my friend

  Kensho
• 

  Anony Mous

  Hi Kensho, I'm in the same boat as you:

  1) My wife was born and raised a JW as was I. ALL of our family and friends are thus in the truth. We literally have NO ONE outside. Try to make friends outside. If you have family, reach out to them. If you have people at your job you can talk to, reach out. I told my boss and some others and they've been great. I also contacted my estranged family and they've been great. Most people on the outside actually are great people once you get to know them, non-judgmental, open to discussion. Doesn't mean you can trust everyone but somehow and at some time you have to integrate yourself into society again. The JW's let you talk to 0.1% of the population. Imaging how many people and friends you'll have when you can talk to 99.9% of people.

  2) That's why my wife said she left me for a period. I changed, I didn't have those goals anymore that mates are supposed to have inside the cult (you can see right there how deep the brainwashing goes - potential mates are pre-qualified for you). However she came around when I showed her I was still the same, my love wouldn't change and I wasn't about to convert her or prevent her from going to meetings. She has to make those decisions on her own.

  3) Between my 16 and 20 I was drinking, clubbing, raving, you name it. Until a few days ago she didn't know that. Those things are in your past however. You don't have to go back to THAT - which was in my case a rebelling against my upbringing in the JW cult. You have to go back to a normal life, not a hedonistic lifestyle. Professional help is sometimes in order.

  4) Yes. Here loves comes into play as well as the real persona of somebody. Usually the love for you supersedes the WT brainwashing (as it did in my wife) and you know why: Because you give them something tangible - the WT comes up with promises and deep down every JW knows they're probably not going to come true. They may cry and be angry at first and even threaten or actually leave you but IF YOU CONTINUE TO LOVE HER and support them whatever decision they may want to make (I always said: if that's what you want to do, then do so, just make sure that's what YOU want) they'll most likely come back. If you go toe to toe with them and yell and tell her she's a cultist (you may feel that way if she leaves) they'll get 'confirmed' (again, the brainwashing) that you are evil and a 'threat to their spiritual well being'. Be careful of the elders, they'll support and sometimes encourage her decision to LEAVE YOU, they'll NEVER encourage her to stay or patch things up (funny how that works but I had to see it with my own eyes). That alone may spark some questions later. I'll ask my wife later in time, well did anybody actually encourage you to stay with me? I know the answer.

  5) Most of the early OT I can't believe in, the scientific evidence just proofs it's false if you interpret it literally. They're myths and most of the Bible is a recounting of myths. There are some parts in there about a very barbaric group of people (Israelites or so) cutting up their wives and in general having a lot of sex and war. The God of the Old Testament sounds very insecure, impotent and very human. The God of the New Testament sounds very Hellenistic, Stoic, surreal even while a lot of the doctrine contradicts itself.

  If you want to contact me on Google Talk (Jabber), FaceTime, Skype or otherwise send me a PM. It's sometimes good to talk to others that not only support your decisions but also know what you're going through. Trust me, you're not alone, hundreds of people are doing the same thing and hundreds are going through those problems. Those that don't make it go crazy and/or kill themselves, very few stay and become a happy dub because once you know the truth, there is no turning back.

  You'll have night sweats, panic attacks and your conscience is opening up again. It's normal to feel awkward and weird. But it's going to become all right. Write down your life story from your heart (you can find mine on this forum too) and share it with whoever you want to share it. Read it again a day or a few days later and see how much revolved around you fearing the future, fearing Armageddon and the elders and disfellowshipping and other Witnesses and how you don't fear those things anymore. You may open up some ugly drawers as did I (I repressed a lot of memories) and you may need help getting through those but life only gets better. Trust me, it's the first few days of my new life and things are great.