VAT 4956/LBAT 1420 question

by outsmartthesystem 17 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  outsmartthesystem

  I posted this as comment number one million in the Nov 1 WT thread...but I'll post here too:

  I don't know if this has been discussed yet....but if it is agreed that VAT 4956 is from the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar (the argument being was year 37 in 568 or 588BC), and there is no argument that BM 38462 (LBAT 1420) shows 2 eclipse records for year 17.....then what is the JW response to the details of those eclipses? BM 38462 (LBAT 1420) describes in great detail an eclipse that happened on Tebetu 13 of the 17th year of Nebuchadnezzar. The details say that it happened in the "morning watch". "1 beru, 5 degrees before sunrise. All of it was covered. It set eclipsed". It just happens to be that the 13th day of Tebetu would have fallen on January 8th of 587BC. With the Babylonians dividing the 24 hour day into 12 beru or 360 degrees (one beru = 2 hours and each degree = 4 minutes).......1 beru and 5 degrees would equal about 2 hours and 20 minutes. According to what was written on the tablet, this eclipse began about 2 hours and 20 minutes before sunrise. It was a total eclipse (hence "all of it was covered"). And it set eclipsed (the eclipse ended after moonset). My my....there just happened to be an eclipse on January 8, 587BC that began at 4:51 am (in the morning watch) just like the text says. Sunrise occurred at 7:12 am that day. The difference between 4:51 am and 7:12 am is 2 hours and 21 minutes.....just like the text says. The moon was FULLY eclipsed from 5:53 am until 7:38 am. Moonset occurred at 7:17am. So this means taht the eclipse was still TOTAL at moonset (hence, it "set while eclipsed).

  This description in the text matches the eclipse that happened on January 8, 587BC perfectly. But if the 17th year of Nebuchadnezzar was 20 years prior...as the Watchtower claims....then this eclipse would have happened in December 608BC/January607BC. Does ANYONE know if there are any eclipse records from December 608BC/January 607BC? And if so....are they even close to matching the description given in the text?
• 

  Doug Mason

  I have no idea if this will be of any help: "Five Millennium Canon of Lunar Eclipses -1999 to +3000 (2000 BCE to 3000 CE)", Espenak and Meeus, NASA. Available for download at:

  http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/5MCLE/5MKLE-214173.pdf

  The main page at NASA is:

  http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse.html

  They also have a search engine for SOLAR eclipses at

  http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEsearch/SEsearch.php

  On the page http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/JLEX/JLEX-index.html it says:

  "The Javascript Lunar Eclipse Explorer can compute the local circumstances for every lunar eclipse visible from a city for any century from -1999 to 3000 (2000 BCE to 3000 CE). When was the last total lunar eclipse visible from London? When is the next partial lunar eclipse visible from New York? These questions and many others can be answered easily using this web tool. Pick a geographic location and search for all eclipses visible from that spot over several thousand years."

  I hope that's a bit of a help and is relevant to your needs.

  Doug
• 

  Doug Mason

  According to Stephenson ("Historical Eclipses and Earth's Rotation", page 97):

  "The geograhic co-ordinates of Babylon are: lat. = +32.55 deg, long. = -44.42 deg. Since the plain in which the site of the city is located is so flat, there is no need to make any allowance for horizon profile in deducing the time of sunrise or sunset, etc."

  Doug
• 

  VM44

  "The geograhic co-ordinates of Babylon are: lat. = +32.55 deg, long. = -44.42 deg. Since the plain in which the site of the city is located is so flat, there is no need to make any allowance for horizon profile in deducing the time of sunrise or sunset, etc."

  Thanks Doug, that is important information.
• 

  outsmartthesystem

  I've been out on a trip and will be tomorrow too. I'll check out those links sometime though. Thakns
• 

  Doug Mason

  VM44,

  I suggest that you will get more precise information when you Google for the geographic co-ordinates (and in terms of minutes and seconds), the elevation above sea level, and the time zone.

  Doug
• 

  outsmartthesystem

  Doug

  Perhaps I have not educated myself enough yet (or am too dumb to figure out the tables).....but the dates in the Five Millennium Canon don't seem to match up at all with Jonsson's dates. What am I missing?
• 

  Doug Mason

  Hi outsmart,

  At the moment, I can only suggest that the dates by Oppolzer and from NASA are not in agreement. I assume you have downloaded their Catalog:

  http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/5MCLE/5MKLE-214173.pdf

  where the Introduction provides a narrative on the development of the Canon from Oppolzer's time

  When you go to http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEcat5/LE-0599--0500.html scroll down and select for example, 03460. That then shows the path of the eclipse for -567 July 04 (that is 568 BCE of course), and explains the reason it was predicted but not seen.

  Did you have a go at the Javascript tool at:

  http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/JLEX/JLEX-AS.html

  If so, tell me what your input criteria were (select Baghdad for simplicity sake) and tell me the results you got for say 568 BCE (-567). How do these compare with Oppolzer?

  I shall make enquiries. Maybe others can provide some illumination on this?

  Always remember that the issue of the dates is only a concern for the WTS. The responsibility for verifying dates is their problem, but every time they remove faith in the accuracy of a secular record, they remove a plank from their foundation.

  Doug
• 

  outsmartthesystem

  Doug....it appears as though I rushed through and neglected to consider the difference between astronomical year dating and western style year dating.
• 

  AnnOMaly

  ... if it is agreed that VAT 4956 is from the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar (the argument being was year 37 in 568 or 588BC), and there is no argument that BM 38462 (LBAT 1420) shows 2 eclipse records for year 17.....then what is the JW response to the details of those eclipses?

  There is nothing official from the WTS I can see (but given these recent WT articles, who knows whether it will be one day?). However, one JW responds this way:

  "Because the scheme with eclipses on LBAT 1420* will perfectly fit a reign of Nebuchadnezzar starting in many different years, the tablet cannot be used to prove that Nebuchadnezzar's year 1 is 604 B.C.E. Moreover, we cannot know whether the scheme of eclipses with five and six month intervals used for the backward calculations by the astrologer was the correct scheme. And a scheme with different intervals would give a perfect fit if 624 was year 1 of Nebuchadnezzar. Therefore, this tablet has little chronological value." - R. Furuli, Assyrian, Babylonian and Egyptian Chronology (2nd ed., 2008), p. 130-131.