Healthy skepticism is fine . . . but to dismiss out of hand for want of evidence makes little sense to me.
re-read my post. I did not do that...
"Putting on and taking off the flesh" in more scientific terms ;)
by tec 21 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
sizemik
simple metaphysical ideas without any scientific backing behind them. . . . EntirelyPossible
Perhaps I read too much into you're agreement with this . . . if so, my apologies.
But there are legitimate Physicists and University faculties who are also searchable on the web, who take a less skeptical approach than the above, to the theory. Google will simply take you to the most popular websites first, which delve unrestrained into the metaphysical. My reading has suggested the theory has a tad more respect than the metaphysical philosophies alone might portray.
However, I am not a physicist . . . just an interested bystander. I therefore have to remain more open-minded for that reason. Perhaps you Bohm, as your moniker suggests, have more understanding than I do, of Quantum Physics. I have little understanding of the mathematics involved that need satisfying for SSW to present particulate characteristics. I have to rely on other minds for that.
But I have not found the theory conclusively debunked at this stage . . . so I cannot dismiss it.
-
tec
It isn't just SWT, Bohm and EP. It is also Einstien's theory of matter and energy being two forms of the same thing. SWT adds to that, imo - or at least it adds to how the change from one form to another might occur. But of course it is in the beginning stages. That's why it is so e Xciting. Everything starts out as a hypothesis, and then grows into more if it is sound.
But even without SWT, Einsteins theory e Xplains something that I had been unsure of, regarding Christ rising bodily into a spiritual realm. SWT can theorize the how of it. And if not that, then another theory or discovery can/could/will show the how of matter converting to energy and vice versa.
The terms in ancient times are set to the understanding of the people then. As we grow in our (scientific) understanding of the world around us, we can add detail to those simpler e Xplanations.
I personally think it carries great weight as to the truth of Christ's words, and his rising. I understand that for some, you will still need to see the absolute proof before you even consider the possibility. But for those with faith, if you struggled a little with this one, then I hope this helps.
not necessarily giving up the body but a putting on of incoruption, a putting on of immortality.
Perhaps yes. I didn't receive any understanding on that... but if the flesh is corrupt, and the spirit not, then this could also be an understanding without the scientific details attached. Paul showing faith in something not yet beheld. But the end/main result still understood.
I don't understand the specifics of the science but what I like is the marriage between ancient wisdom and modern wisdom.
I do too! Very much so.
Peace,
Tammy
-
EntirelyPossible
Try doing some actual research instead of a 10 minute google search before getting your knickers in a twist over what is no more than a challenge on my semantics.
No need to get all feisty and start assuming I didn't do anything but a 10 minute google search. I read several links on it and none of them seemed very scientific at all. Over the past week or so since I first saw you mention it I have poked around looking for a few hours.
You may even have to leave your computer if that's possible, and actually talk to a scientist.
Ease up, cowboy. I leave my computer all the time. I was just asking if you had something of more substance to point me to than what I had been able to find.If you do, I would LOVE to see it.
I will readily admit I don't have time to track this down and then find a scientist to talk to. I suspect that if I tracked down the right person I would have already been able to track down relavent reading material. I am kinda busy, ex wife, two kids, busy career, metal concerts, charity golf tournaments and what not.
But even without SWT, Einsteins theory eXplains something that I had been unsure of, regarding Christ rising bodily into a spiritual realm.
I have yet to see that since I can't find anything of scientific substance on it. That's where I al asking for help on. What I did find didn't explain anything as far as I could tell. This is in part because of a heavily assumed idea that spirit = energy. If that is the case, then heaven exists in my computer since energy is flowing through it. Not because of the porn, although that helps sometimes.
And relativity doesn't explain transforming from matter to energy and then back to the same state of matter as before, just that matter and energy are the same and CAN be converted. So far, that has tended to be a one way transaction (Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Sun...)
-
PSacramento
The NT tells us thet Christ's body after the resuurection was of flesh yes, but not the same as "human bodies" are.
It could materialize and dematerialize at will ( appear into a romm that was locked or just vanish from a table).
It could be felt and there is no reason to think that the feeling was any different than a "normal body", but Christ didn't seem recognisible unless He wanted to be.
Jesus said that the resurrected bodies would be like those of God's Angels and Paul makes the distinction between the "soulish" living Body and the "spiritual" ressurected one.
We also need ot remember that even before the resurreecting that Christ's body was not 100% normal, He could sense if someone touched even his clothes and His Power was such that a person of faith could be healed just by touching his clothes, even without Christ's conscious healing action.
Think "aura" for lack of a better word.
-
keyser soze
For some reason I was thinking of Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs.
-
tec
And relativity doesn't explain transforming from matter to energy and then back to the same state of matter as before, just that matter and energy are the same and CAN be converted. So far, that has tended to be a one way transaction (Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Sun...)
I get what you're saying, EP. Which is why I made sure to state that we are just on the brink of being able to understand the scientific implications of what Christ spoke of, and did... as well as spirit beings moving from one dimension/realm to another and back again. I have no idea if we have anything that shows something moving from one to the other then back again. I am seeing that, according to what I already believe is possible... but could not grasp the 'how' of things. I'm sure I still just barely grasp it, but that I can have some sense of it at all is incredibly eXciting. For me, at least, and a few others.
My Dad had stated to me earlier this summer (on our road trip) about Einstein have said that there was the same amount of energy/matter in the universe. One can go up and the other down, or vice versa, but the amount of both combined is always the same. If that is true, then it stands to reason (to me) that matter and energy do go from one to another, and back again. I'll have to look that up.
BUT it doesn't change the understanding that I received that was related to the flesh, and Christ risen/ascended. That helped me to understand, and I wanted to share it. I have been on a 'high' for two days now :)
PSac, I'm not entirely sure about how what you're saying is relating to what I wrote? Or are you just sharing your understanding? Cool, if so. Otherwise, could you clarify for me? Thank you!
Keyser - I am embarrased to admit that it took me waaaaay too long to get the reference!
Peace all,
Tammy
-
sizemik
I will readily admit I don't have time to track this down and then find a scientist to talk to.
I am kinda busy, ex wife, two kids, busy career, metal concerts, charity golf tournaments and what not.
So let me get this straight . . . you're too busy to do any real research yourself so you want others to do it for you?
I came back to this thread ready to paste close to 40 links discussing Wave theory . . . mostly from University Research Faculties . . . lot's of relevant scientific material. But really . . . it's not that hard to find.
No need to get all feisty and start assuming I didn't do anything but a 10 minute google search.
Sorry if it sounds feisty . . . but several hours poking around should get you a better result than nil . . . I suspect my assumption is actually correct.
If you're really that interested . . . you'll find it . . . if not . . . you won't.
Instead I would simply suggest you ponder this advice . . .
It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer.
- Albert EinsteinI'm off for a round of Golf.
-
EntirelyPossible
For some reason I was thinking of Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs.
It puts the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the cross again.
So let me get this straight . . . you're too busy to do any real research yourself so you want others to do it for you?
No, you do not have it straight. I have been doing the research but so far I have been unable to find material that seems to be as salient as what you have found, so I asked for pointers. As to not being able to find time to go talk to a scientist, as I said, if I could find the relavent material that would point me to someone that had researched the material, I would have ALREADY found the material.
As I said, I have looked, can't find the material you seem to have found. You can post a link to help me out or not, but don't even try to credit to not looking or being lazy or too busy. That dog won't hunt.
but several hours poking around should get you a better result than nil . . . I suspect my assumption is actually correct.
Several hours of poking didn't. I only have so much time to read papers. Your assumption MAY be correct in some or even the majority or circumstances. I just asked for help as I said what I HAD spent several hours looking for and reading didn't seem relevent.
Good luck on the golf. Long and straight. I'm playing in a charity tournament Wednesday. Depending, we may play sometime. What's your handicap?
-
AGuest
if one could control this transformation between matter and energy (such as this 'standing wave'), then one could literally put on and put off the flesh.
YES!!!!! WHOO-HOOO!! You GOT it, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you!). It is a bit difficult for some of US (humans) to get... because the BODY we possess cannot do/doesn't allow this (controlling transformating between energy/matter so as to put on/off flesh. Adham's body DID, initially... before he was given the "long garment of skin". Before that... he could "go in AND out" between the spirit and physical realm. That's how he got INTO Eden - he was created OUTSIDE, brought in (to the spirit realm, the Garden)... then put back out (again, into the physical realm)).
Since the only things WE tend to be able to "experience" seems to related directly to our flesh (as we inherited it from Adham), imagining... let alone acknowledging... things BEYOND that is very difficult for some. When we open our MINDS, however, to the truth... that we are MORE than just the vessel we reside in... that that vessel is actually a "master" of sorts... then we can at least begin to contemplate HOW, if POSSIBLE, one CAN "transcend" the flesh... can move PAST that body. But that is all we can do, for now. Unlike spirit beings, who are NOT "enslaved" to bodies of flesh... we cannot control energy and matter. Again, our bodies won't let us... for now. When we put on the WHITE "robe", however, the body NOT of flesh (with its blood)... but one that has HOLY SPIRIT (God's blood) "flowing" through it... one is no longer BOUND... by the "rules" of energy/matter as manifested in the PHYSICAL world.
It can be done. Will man figure out how? I truly do not know. I don't think so... because, IMHO, it would be too close to being like "eating from the Tree of Life." I believe that our Lord... or perhaps God Himself... will act before that occurs. However, I also believe that if they did NOT act... man would indeed "discover" the secret to this truth... and do what he always does: exploit it... to the domination... and detriment... of his fellow man.
I am SO excited for you, dear tec... that this understanding was given to you... and that you shared it with us. Thank you, truly.
If that is the case, then heaven exists in my computer since energy is flowing through it.
And this is a problem, why, dear EP (the greatest of love and peace to you, too!)? Is not the kingdom "inside" you... AND "all around" you? It is, dear one. I promise you. It is not limited... in size, scope... or location... as is the physical realm.
I bid you ALL peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA