What is BELIEF ? (page 10)

Oubliette

Simon: we don't believe the pope is some divine representative of an imaginary super-being.

But some people do.

Xanthippe

Lack of belief in god is not a claim that there is NO god. This is where people can't understand atheists

Sorry if I'm being thick but I don't know what this means? (I am an atheist)

EdenOne

Simon: whatever you do though please don't simply debate the debate.

Fair enough.

Eden

Oubliette

FMF: Lack of belief in god is not a claim that there is NO god. This is where people can't understand atheists.

Yes.

Imagine a person is accused of committing a brutal murder. During the trial, evidence is presented by both sides, the prosecution and the defense, to the jury.

At the conclusion of the trial, the jury deliberates. One juror says, "I believe he is innocent." Another says, "I do not believe he is guilty."

Although these may superficially seem to be equivalent statements, they are not. Juror #1 is asserting that the evidence presented convinced her of the accused's innocence, whereas Juror #2 is stating that the evidence was not enough to persuade her of his guilt beyond the proverbial reasonable doubt.

It is similar when people discuss their belief about whether or not God exists.

Some assert a belief that there is no God. God does not exist.

Others may state that they do not believe God exists. These are not equivalent statements.

"I believe there is no God," is not equal to: "I do not believe in God."

I've quoted it before on this forum, but I think it's appropriate to repeat it here, Carl Sagan's thoughts on the subject:

Those who raise questions about the God hypothesis and the soul hypothesis are by no means all atheists. An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed. - Conversations with Carl Sagan (2006), edited by Tom Head, p. 70

The subject of evidence, what it is and what it is not, is another subject for another time.

talesin

wow, 23 pages of hot air and all we have to do is ask the OED. :)

Notes on the quote below:

"Belief" may be defined as a concept that is without proof, especially when spoken of in a religious concept.

BrE /bɪˈliːf/
; NAmE /bɪˈliːf/
[uncountable] belief (in something/somebody) a strong feeling that something/somebody exists or is true; confidence that something/somebody is good or right
I admire his passionate belief in what he is doing.
belief in God/democracy
The incident has shaken my belief (= made me have less confidence) in the police.
[singular, uncountable] belief (that…) an opinion about something; something that you think is true
She acted in the belief that she was doing good.
Contrary to popular belief (= in spite of what people may think), he was not responsible for the tragedy.
There is a general belief that things will soon get better.
[countable, usually plural] something that you believe, especially as part of your religion
religious/political beliefs
A society should be judged on its beliefs and values.
compare disbelief, unbelief

Xanthippe

Some assert a belief that there is no God. God does not exist.
Others may state that they do not believe God exists. These are not equivalent statements.

I think they are the same statement grammatically and semantically. However, I understand what Sagan is saying, belief and certainty because of compelling evidence are two different things.

EdenOne

eden, radicalism only has a bad name because at the moment it is associated with ISIS.

I don't agree. Radicalism isn't new. Basically it means "change at the root" and, when associated with politics, it has been expressed by means of revolutions. Revolutions are violent movements. In the religious arena, "radicalism" is usually associated with attempts from one group to impose their theological ideas on others, either by aggressive proselitism, forced conversion, or outright violence, and death. ISIS is just the most recent incarnation, but "radicalism" in the realm of ideas is also not new.

To me, Jehovah's Witnesses are a borderline radical christian cult, because they proactively engage in proselytization (although I can't say "aggressively") and they advocate the conversion of the entire mankind to jehovism by means of a massive genocide at Armaggedon.

If an advocate for atheism [or insert any other -ism that you can think of] aims to aggressively uproot theism from their audience, to change the other person at the root of their belief system, even if that attempt isn't welcome, doesn't that qualify as "radical"? That was the use I gave to "radicalism" before.

Eden

EdenOne

Viviane: You've been vague and gotten upset when you were asked to be clear.

How am I supposed to define a deity which I don't believe in? That's why, when you repeatedly asked me to define a deity, the best I could do was to give you some common traits of deities that are worshipped by a large percentage of the world's population. I can't be any clearer than that. Do you go around asking atheists: "define me god?"

Eden

Oubliette

Xanthippe: I think they are the same statement grammatically and semantically.

How can you think that?

One explicitly asserts possessing knowledge whereas the other states not having that knowledge.

I suggest you reread my analogy of the murder trial.

Saying you believe someone is innocent of a crime is NOT the same as saying you do not believe they are guilty. (Note that neither of these beliefs need be correct. The person might actually be guilty, but this is irrelevant to the point I am making).

One person is convinced of the accused person's innocence, the other is unconvinced of his guilt.

Jonathan Drake

How am I supposed to define a deity which I don't believe in?

What in the actual feck lol. are you just trying to rationalize a way for God to be possible for some reason?

to me, as of this last post, you officially make no sense at all.

What is BELIEF ?

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