What is BELIEF ?

by EdenOne 233 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    Precisely, the claims that theists make about their deities - and lets now use the most common sense of the word deity - is that they are ultimately immaterial in nature. That makes it impossible to acquire evidence about them.

    How does that lead directly to a lack of knowledge?

    But in any case, even if we can call BS on these religious systems, and be pretty confident that no god is going to send us to hell for it, it's still a "belief" and not "knowledge".

    Again, no one ever claimed it was.

    Now most atheists get very offended when theists say that atheism is a "belief" and argue that atheism is simply a lack of belief based on the lack of evidence.

    First, please refrain from commenting on things you cannot possibly know, such as how "most" atheists feel when someone makes a bag argument. You certainly don't know most atheists and cannot possibly have any knowledge of this.

    Second, as you are well aware, there is at least weak atheism, which is exactly what you described, and strong atheism. To discuss a particular for, you need to define which one you are discussing and discuss it with someone holding that view rather than conflate the two and then make an incorrect sweeping generalization.

    But what I see here is that the lack of belief in this case is in itself a form of belief.

    Yes, many people incorrectly attempt to make that argument by conflating different terms, ideas and failing in their logic.

    Because what you get from lack of evidence is lack of knowledge.

    Also that common mistake is based on ridiculous claims such as this.

    And those who claim lack of knowledge are agnostics, not atheists.

    And conflating and not understanding the difference between ideas. See exhibit A ^^^

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    Simply put, a belief defines an idea or principle which we judge to be true.

    To a theist, "belief" in a deity means that he judges his thoughts and images and stories about God to be true. The lack of belief of the atheist comes from the fact that the doesn't share the same judgement as the theist. But his lack of belief isn't the direct result of the lack of evidence. That lack of evidence results in lack of knowledge. Only then, based on the lack of knowledge, he judges that absence of knowledge as grounds to not share the belief of the theist. But that judgement he makes is in itself a belief.

    What I'm trying to say is that there seems to be an illogical proposition to say that lack of belief is a direct consequence of lack of evidence. The logical consequence of lack of evidence is lack of knowledge. The direct consequence of lack of evidence about the existence of God is agnosticism.

    First, please refrain from commenting on things you cannot possibly know, such as how "most" atheists feel when someone makes a bag argument.

    Ok, I'll rephrase: Most atheists that I have come in contact with ....

    Eden

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    atheists when they say they do not believe in God are saying that they do not have thoughts and images of God that impact their lives in their minds....Ruby456

    That`s not always the case,although I`m sure there are some..

    God has a Great Impact on the lives and minds of some who claim to be atheists..

    They`re visibly,Compulsively Obsessed with Disproving the Existence of God..

    .

    If It wasn`t for The Fact they say "They Don`t Believe in God"..

    ...You Would Think They were "On a Mission From God"...

    .............................Image result for we're on a mission from god

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    Outlaw:

    Richard Dawkins made more money out of god than I ever did ... that's a fact.

    Eden

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    Simply put, a belief defines an idea or principle which we judge to be true.

    Who is this we? Some people believe in god. That doesn't mean "we" do. Do you mean a belief is something an individual judges to be true?

    The lack of belief of the atheist comes from the fact that the doesn't share the same judgement as the theist. But his lack of belief isn't the direct result of the lack of evidence.

    So now you're going to try to tell me what I believe or don't and why? Really?

    That lack of evidence results in lack of knowledge.

    A ridiculous unfounded assertion. You really should dedicate an entire thread to this. For now, think of it this was. I lack evidence that you are a zebra. That doesn't mean I lack knowledge of your status as a zebra. A zebra is a real thing with properties well know. Deities are undefined, there is nothing there to assert that we lack knowledge of until someone can even tell me what the thing is.

    As a corollary example, we lack knowledge of exactly what dark matter is. We do have evidence it exists, but we do science to get more information. Before we had evidence it existed, there were mathematical calculations that showed it should exist. We had a reason to look before we even had evidence! Before the math and before observations, we lacked a reason to even think there was such a thing, we lacked knowledge AND evidence. That's not at ALL the same as god, we simply have the assertion that it exists with nothing else. No one have given us a reason to think there is anything there that we lack knowledge of. In fact, all positive evidence points in the opposite direction.

    But that judgement he makes is in itself a belief.

    No, it doesn't. Why do people keep trying to say "not A = A"? It is logically impossible! It's like saying "you don't have any money, therefore you have money!"

    What I'm trying to say is that there seems to be an illogical proposition to say that lack of belief is a direct consequence of lack of evidence.

    That's because you are getting all sorts of things wrong.

    The logical consequence of lack of evidence is lack of knowledge.

    Such as this.

    The direct consequence of lack of evidence about the existence of God is agnosticism.

    And this.

    Ok, I'll rephrase: Most atheists that I have come in contact with ....

    Rational people SHOULD be offended when people make bad arguments about others feelings and ideas and assert knowledge they cannot possibly have.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    A belief is an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

    For example ......

    The WTS endeavors to promote itself as God's solemnly chosen organization on earth and is therefore duly guiding the organization and its leaders.

    The WTS then coercively allures people toward themselves and mentally indoctrinates theses ones to uphold that assertion and further scrutinizes their members who are best supporting that original expressed assertion and those who are not.

    The ones who aren't are disposed of quickly as an effort to sustain all that acquired power, control and wealth donated by those believers.

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot

    What is BELIEF ?

    Intellectual desire.

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne
    Deities are undefined

    I see you're also perfectly capable of bag arguments. No they're not. They're often vaguely defined, that's entirely different. Several common traits of deities: Superhuman, immaterial, intelligent, powerful beings who somehow take interest in human affairs and are capable of influence them. That's certainly vague, but not "undefined".

    So now you're going to try to tell me what I believe or don't and why? Really?

    The fact that you identify yourself as atheist and you think it is because it meets certain criteria doesn't automatically makes the definition of atheism logically sound. What you believe or don't believe isn't in discussion here.

    It's like saying "you don't have any money, therefore you have money!"

    False analogy. I meant nothing like that.

    Rational people SHOULD be offended when people make bad arguments about others feelings and ideas and assert knowledge they cannot possibly have.

    You're contradicting your own statement. You said that, in spite of not having evidence that I wasn't a zebra, you could confidently know that I wasn't a zebra. By the same logic, I could assert knowledge about others feelings and ideas. You are making yourself a spokesperson for the entire atheist group, something you cannot possibly do. Your logic is flawed here. In any case, it's besides the point. I'm just questioning the logical soundness of the definition of atheism as a "lack of belief due to the lack of evidence for the existence of god". That lack of evidence is grounds for agnosticism. The lack of belief is in itself a belief that grounds itself on the lack of knowledge. What you define yourself as being, is irrelevant to this discussion.

    Eden

  • cofty
    cofty
    An agnostic is just an atheist who has some more thinking to do.
  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    Village Idiot

    What is BELIEF ?
    Intellectual desire.

    If I desire to win the lottery tomorrow, does that make me a believer?

    Eden

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit