Question...?

by cptkirk 35 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  sizemik

  I don't entirely agree with your definition of idealists. If it simply involves the persuit of ideals . . . then the worlds greatest movers and shakers have all been idealists. As JFK said . . . "Some look at the world and say why? . . . others look at the world and say why not?"

  Or A Einstein if you like . . . "If an ideal is not initially looked upon as absurd . . . there exists no hope for it"

  Don't knock the idealists Jim . . . even if a number are weak and naieve. The trick is to eliminate the gap between your ideals and your powers . . . Hitler almost managed it . . . he just had questionable ideals.

  If we're talking religious idealists then that's different . . . but they're just stealing God's ideas anyway.
• 

  sizemik

  you had anxiety about armageddon and you wanted to assuage that anxiety?

  Actually this raises a good point . . . the JW indoctrination process often gives you the increased anxiety with one hand, while alleviating it with the other . . . and very quickly makes you dependent on it. If you leave you take the increased anxiety with you . . . you have to stay to get the relief. The beginnings of mind control . . . and it usually occurs on the first discussion.
• 

  ScenicViewer

  so you did have a problem than? you had anxiety about armageddon and you wanted to assuage that anxiety?

  @ me?

  No, I don't think I had a problem with armageddon. I really felt what I was learning was the truth. When armageddon failed it had little affect on me, and I stayed in the religion for many years. I was not fully aware of what the organization had said about 1975 being the end, and when remarks were made about some people misunderstanding it all, I didn't question it. Only in the past few years have I looked into that, and have discovered what a completely dishonest organization the WTS is.

  In the early days, I spent long hours reading publications, such as Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, the Society's first history book, and looiking into doctrinal beliefs. The history impressed me greatly. The accuracy of the doctrinal beliefs impressed me too. As I mentioned, I was very gullible. I believed everything I heard -- from the platform, at an assembly, from a CO, from a pioneer, from a mature person in the congregation, from the publications -- I believed it all, only to eventually find out that so much of if was pure manipulation.

  My eyes began to open when the long held understanding of the 'generation that will not pass away' was changed. I could see prior to the change that time was running out, and knew that something would have to give sooner or later. What gave was getting rid of the old understanding, and replacing it with the silly notion of a 'contemporary generation of wicked people', or words to that effect, followed by 2 or 3 more changes since.

  At about the same time I noticed that elders lie from the platform. For example I heard one eder say, "The Society's position on blood has never changed." I felt that wasn't quite right when he said it, and I never forgot it. When I got the internet I looked into that, and found there had been literally dozens of changes over the decades.

  I honestly believed it was the truth, and gave my life to it. I think that when I came in I was about as normal as most kids my age.
• 

  cptkirk

  size: i just believe they aren't idealists, they are realists who recognize certain aspects of society can be made better. idealist to me is someone that ignores math. you ever hear someone say 'oh all that psychology is just crap', that kind of person...and then they hold up some ideal, not realizing all psychology is, is the study of the mind. but they will blow that off and give you their take. that is an idealist to me, they don't care about math or science.

  scenic: you dont really fit the criteria actually. because you weren't a fully grown adult. still in that mentality (back then) that you are a helpless entity, and whatever the adults say goes. when did you leave anyway?
• 

  Brad Wilson

  I'm with SceicViewer on this. I thought I had found the truth. My upbringing was pretty uneventful and no major bad things had happened to me. I too thought I was as just a normal kid.
• 

  sizemik

  I guess it depends on your definition of idealist . . . and the context. That being the case I take your point.

  As to the original question . . . vulnerability to indoctrination is a pretty deep and complex issue that can involve some critical coincidence of timing.

  As for my own conversion . . . I was young, recently married, working and reasonably stable and happy. In this country during 1981, the South African Rugby team toured during the Apartheid era. Violent protests ensued for several weeks which even pitted members of the same families against one another . . . there was a lot of social unrest and trauma for what is a small country.

  I was contacted on a day off by an older sister working on her own who was very articulate and well prepared. She tailored her presentation to the current social unrest . . . citing last days scriptures like "brother will betray brother" . . . and "a man's enemies will prove to be those of his own household" It was largely out of context in hindsight but it was enough to engage my interest. I was also Biblically ignorant having no formal religious upbringing . . . and generally intrigued by the Bible's popularity. I saw it as an opportunity to learn something new, naievely believing that most Bible-based religions believed essentially the same thing. Anyway . . . the hook was set.

  Check Freeminds.org for some detailed analysis of vulnerability to conversion. I've also read a study paper which cites a lack of parenting factors contributing significantly to vulnerability . . . all sounding quite valid.

  Like I said . . . I think it's too broad to throw a blanket over.
• 

  cantleave

  I knew someone who converted, who used to own a small entertainment empire including a bowling alley and games arcade.
• 

  cptkirk

  money isn't happiness, did you know him personally? just look at a guy like robert downey jr. that guy is extremely wealthy, but even better than wealth, he's famous...fame, now he's got the monopoly on the iron man character....meanwhile he's got people hiding sharp objects from him inside his own house, and watching him 24/7 to make sure he doesn't jump out any windows.
• 

  bats in the belfry

  sizemik >

  The man I studied with was only recently baptised himself. ...When I was finally baptised nearly three years later ... he took myself ...

  Whoa... your study took the plunge close to three years prior to you? They let you continue to be unbaptized publisher™ for that long?
• 

  still thinking

  I think its just a matter of wrong place wrong time.

  Most people aren't home when they knock...or in bed....their strike rate could be considerably higher if they were.

  If they fluke good timing...they hit a nerve with what they are selling, witnessing, the person could be going through a temporary life event that could make them vulnerable. Or even a major one.

  The person may be experiencing some types of anxiety for whatever reason.

  The person may just be disillusioned with their current religion and curious about what they are selling offering

  There are probably a million different reasons why people let them in the door....but timing and bad luck is the main one.

  I have to say though, that when I first let them in....my life was ok...but I was searhing for the meaning of it all....I thought 'what harm could it do to talk to them?' and they seemed genuine...but the seed had been planted after a few months....then I went back to work full time and just couldn't fit in the bible study.....the second time a couple of years later my life was shite and they DID help to keep me sane....if only to later make me insane.