Writing is language. Language originates within the brain. I don't mean to pigeonhole this discussion to written language. Any form of language is what the term "God-breathed" is describing whether that's the Bible or ancient wall paintings.
-Sab
All Scripture is God-breathed
by sabastious 27 Replies latest watchtower bible
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sabastious
I applaud you on your analysis, Sab, but I tend to think the simplest solution is most often the correct one. Those who edited and compiled the book we now call the Bible clearly wanted the message to be that God literally told the Bible writers what to write. So they put those words in the scriptures attributed to both Paul and Peter, the two biggest bigwigs in the historical establishment of the church. It really is that simple.
That's not a simple explanation at all. It leaves a gaping logic hole for the means of this realtime God-human communication you are referring to. The simplest answer is that God didn't write the Bible. We wrote it and he made us, so by that logic, he wrote it.
-Sab
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sabastious
This is so far from accurate. It is clear that it wasn't Moses that wrote any "scriptures" before or after God's breath let go of the bike and took off the training wheels. Nor was it Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John that wrote the "gospels" before or after God's breath let go of the bike and took off the training wheels.
The "bike" is language: linguistic representations of readings from our senses, OTWO. Religion existed when language existed. I think the accepted evolutionary theory of audible communication was laugher first then screaming.
-Sab
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Band on the Run
Last Lent we were discussing the canonization process. I made a point that how dare a group of specific men legitimate scripture for all time. The priest agreed for the most part. He felt there biggest mistake was declaring the canon closed. Certainly, God works through people today. A C.S. Lewis or Thomas Merton could be scripture. I feel it was a mistake to take a very small chunk of human history (particularly with the NT) and give the impression that God somehow acted magically then but can't do so now.
If the canon were more free, people might feel moved to read their Bibles. B/c of law, I read tons of English history. The battles over Christology and authority costs many thousands of lives. Scripture does not pro vide a detailed explanation. Doctrine is not set forth. Maybe scripture is potent b/c it is not the Nicene Creed or the Apostle's Creed. If Jesus had foreknowledge of all the deaths, he could have been more clear.
My conception of the Bible has changed dramatically over the years. I don't know why the Protestants seemed to completely forget church tradition. Maybe I have a false impression. I just want God to be present now. As a Witness, I oftened felt cheated by not witnessing the miracles or sayings of Jesus. Those Christians seemed to have an undue advantage. Imagine knowing Paul as a friend. Knowing his flaws. Seeing him as a human.
God-breathed is such a clunky translation to me. It could mean many things.
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sabastious
BotR, the reason why a "clunky" (nice choice of word btw!) term was chosen is because no adequate language exists to describe the true process of how God works through us. No adequate term exists because we cannot explain the process yet, that's all. Until God is fully scientifically explainable we will always have to have "good enough" types of language for things not well understood. We use linguistic symbols to describe perceived unexplainable phenomenon.
-Sab
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wobble
I think most of us, in the past Sab, have done as you have above and restricted the "Scriptures" referred to by the writer of Timothy to the accepted O.T Canon.
But in line with B.O.R's comment above, could not the writer be saying that any "scripture" (sacred writing) could be considered "God-breathed" if it was able to "teach, to correct, to show people how to live"( to paraphrase) , that way the canon would in fact never need to be closed.
Remember the probable late date of Timothy 1&2 , the writer would have been well aware of the writings circulating, Gnostic and other "Gospels" etc, and by this argument of his, he would be seeking to qualify all the writings of Paul and his own to Timothy , as scripture, and maybe distance them from some of the more obviously errant ones.
It is possible to read his words that way, no ?
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PSacramento
I agree that it was a mistake to CLOSE the canon but that the canon is "correct" I also agree with.
The canon is a collection of books that were, AT THE TIME, considered authoritive.
They did NOT BECOME authritive because they became canon, they became canon because they were authoritive.
They should never hav closed it because many later writings were "just as good' if not better, the writing of Augustine and Aquinas for example and even Luther.
The issue has been and always will be interpretation of what was written and it is a two fold issue:
How to interpret it in the context of WHEN and to WHOM it was written.
How to interpret it to US, today and tomorrow.
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Justahuman24
"Why doesn't the Bible speak of this "breath of life" when concerning animals? Because the animals don't have it, only humans do"
Sebastious - I disagree with that statement. Genesis 7:22-24 says that "Everything in which the breath of the force of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died. 23 Thus he wiped out every existing thing that was on the surface of the ground, from man to beast, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, and they were wiped off the earth; and only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving."
Just because the Bible doesn't describe IN detail how God created animals, DOES NOT mean they were created differently or that they don't have the "breath of life". The fact that animals breath is proof they do. And in other places of the Bible, it is said that they animals have God's ru'ah (breath, wind, etc).
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sabastious
I have always sought out agreement from others. At first, I determined that this trait was because of my upbringing. My father wanted me to be a blue colar businessman, he wanted me to be a partner in his construction business. I would go on jobs with him, but I never had any intention of getting into anything other than computers after I graduated high school. So, instead of accepting his son for who he was in his heart, my father chose to hate my choice, not me, my choice.
At this point in my life I now know that my need for approval goes beyond being deprived of it as a child. Why do we need approval in the first place? I have studied other people's studies of the brain for many years now. I have always been an astute observer of human activity. I feel comfortable when I speak about it's intricacies because of my personal mental struggles as well as the years of scientific instuction I have been given by experts within the field.
The logical brain needs agreement because, simply put, that's its designation. The left brain is a list maker. All human's have a "list" of all the people they have ever met and each of them is assigned a quantitative rank for general logical validity. These ranks are constantly changing as new information comes in.
My father didn't give my left brain the validation it requires in the developmental stages of childhood. Fathers, by biological default, are assigned a high validity rank by the logical brain. However, my father not only disagreed with my choices, he went as far as to suggest a dramatic alternative of which I was forced to reject. I'm not sure at which point my father's "validity rank" in my brain sunk, but needless to say it was not a seamless transition.
Here's the point:
Life's MO, at least in regard to our quest for truth, is to seek out people who you can assign high "validity rank" in your logical system (NOT emotional). As those people are discovered, which in my case didn't include my father (yet), the next step is to "align" yourself to them. And that's what I believe that "God-breathed" is speaking of, that real alignment between humans logical brains that is as clear as day. Many groups in this world are well oiled machines and create new truth all the time. Yet at the same time some don't seem to stand a chance at anything other than crumbling from within. That's because some are "aligned" and some are not.
And as a side point about animals having the "breath of God": We evolved FROM animals so in that regard animals have the breath because it takes THEM to get US, but they do not have reason like we do, they don't have choice like we do. It's very important to make that distiction and that's why the Bible almost starts out the gate making it.
-Sab
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EntirelyPossible
Well I mean a whole brain left alone will go insane because of the left brains need to make sense of it's environment. Eventually it will believe a lie and drift off into insanity without others to be reality anchors.
We call that "religion".