I don't believe there is a heaven... (page 4)

Jeffro

Heaven is pretty useless without a nervous system.

cyberjesus

It does not matter what we believe.

if it doesnt matter what we believe then why to stop believing in Jehovah? wait and see. It doesnt matter only to the people who doesnt matter. but to the people that matters ... it mattters.

it matters because on it dependens what you do or dont do.

what we believe is important and only important to us and nobody else. I dont care what anybody thinks about the subject. what matter is what is important to me.

When I left the JWs I learned that to me what is important is to live my live and not someone elses, no matter how close they are to the end.

JAFO, their is nothing wrong with having an intellectual discussion over opposing philosophical view points of theism and atheism. It does not matter which side you hold. I could very easily play devils advocate in such a debate. Rational thought and discussion from both sides is constructive to intellectual growth.

Unlike the Watchtower which is not open to free thought, I exercise that freedom. If you don't want to hear opposing views to your own world view I feel that is very narrow minded. Although a lot of people may have had negative experiences by association with controlling, totalitarian, religious organizations and power structures so they choose to not hear any view that reminds them of such a negative experience so they shut down all free thinking and reject any theistic discussion completely beyond reason. Which I do not blame them as I had to do the same.

I believe in free thinking and logic which requires criticism and opposing theories and hypothesis to be tested to find what evidence is worth holding on to until miss proven.

I follow the scientific method, if it opposes my current theory I change it and I don't let emotion get the way. This would apply both ways and to a religious person who ignores proven science and dishonestly chooses to believe the earth is flat. Also worth noting is that science changes all the time and most current scientific knowledge may be theorized but people may have a belief system within it. I try to stay objective and open to free thought.

LongHairGal

Snoozy:

I don't know what I believe anymore either after my experience in the JW religion. When I first started my "fade" one of the first teachings I washed out of my head was the "paradise earth" and "no death" teaching. I won't speak for anybody else but for me these teachings were nothing but a cruel tease and I felt it was unhealthy for ME to cling to them. So, I made peace with the idea of life and death that has been going on since the beginning of time.

I also feel that the JW teaching of a paradise on earth is the same as Christendom's teaching of heaven and a hereafter. The only difference is that the JW's believe their "hereafter" is physically here on earth. Other than that the beliefs are similar. The JWs squander their present life daydreaming about a "future" when they can live the "real" life (so stupid!). The idea that somebody squander their present life like watching sand run through an hourglass in hopes that they will get a future one is just so insanely ridiculous to me.

TheUbermensch

. Regarding God being a Murder... First your numbers of "Millions and Millions" is not accurate for representing the occasions when God commissioned His people to carry out judgment on corrupt and degenerate heathen nations through the profits of Israel in the Old testament.

Actually it is accurate. He did not say only in the Bible, he also meant (correct me if I'm wrong Farkel) things like the Crusades, Inquisition, etc. Wars outside the Bible that happened because their sky daddy was MUCH more powerful than the other sky daddy.

Snoozy

Long Hair Gal said: "I don't know what I believe anymore either after my experience in the JW religion. When I first started my "fade" one of the first teachings I washed out of my head was the "paradise earth" and "no death" teaching. I won't speak for anybody else but for me these teachings were nothing but a cruel tease and I felt it was unhealthy for ME to cling to them. So, I made peace with the idea of life and death that has been going on since the beginning of time.

I also feel that the JW teaching of a paradise on earth is the same as Christendom's teaching of heaven and a hereafter. The only difference is that the JW's believe their "hereafter" is physically here on earth. Other than that the beliefs are similar. The JWs squander their present life daydreaming about a "future" when they can live the "real" life (so stupid!). The idea that somebody squander their present life like watching sand run through an hourglass in hopes that they will get a future one is just so insanely ridiculous to me."

Very well said!

Snoozy

Neon Bible

"Actually it is accurate. He did not say only in the Bible, he also meant (correct me if I'm wrong Farkel) things like the Crusades, Inquisition, etc. Wars outside the Bible that happened because their sky daddy was MUCH more powerful than the other sky daddy."
No, his argument is regrading the God of the Bible so this would only apply to wars approved by the God of the Bible such Wars of the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. These wars where fought on the premiss that they were approved of God through the True Profits. Any wars in current day fought using self praise and the approval of a nations God or Gods is presumptuous that ones God is in approval.
The God of the bible no longer uses a nation in self defensive of such holy wars and that would be ambiguous to name such approval. Any one can kill in the name of God in war. Mans self judged approval does not justify it is approved by God. I believe God is against war, even though has allowed war under certain circumstances. Mans actions in the name of a God or Christinaity do not justify it as moraly right or approved by God. Anyone can wear a cross neckless but you will know them by their fruits.
If two guys were to get in a fight for a girl they don't even know, it does not mean the girl approves of the fight or approves the violence or prefers an outcome for a winner.
On the other hand, if a man came to find another man trying to rape his wife and she screamed for help, her approval and justification of defense would be warranted with her approval. That does not mean the violence is something that is praised but it is warranted of self defense against such evil and selfishness in a horrific situation. These hypothetical scenarios are not always so black and white in justifying the complexities of such moral dilemmas in sociology and in the existance of a world with evil or a sinful nature.

JAFO

JAFO, their is nothing wrong with having an intellectual discussion over opposing philosophical view points of theism and atheism. It does not matter which side you hold. I could very easily play devils advocate in such a debate. Rational thought and discussion from both sides is constructive to intellectual growth.

Not taking issue with that.. here is what made my mind up.

Regarding God being a Murder... <snip> God does not like the death of anyone but life and preservation of good from the destruction and corruption of evil... <and so forth>

You're defending a "god" who, among other things, reportedly slaughtered children (by means of bears, no less.. a horrible way to die) simply for calling his prophet 'old baldy'.. now I ask you.. is that the way you'd punish a child for being disrespectful? Surely not.. Yet you claim this "loving god", who behaves in ways no decent human being would tolerate from another person, is not a murderer?

Sorry, but I expect my god to adhere to higher standards than I hold myself to, not lower ones...

Some say the devil's greatest trick was convincing mankind that he doesn't exist. I maintain that YHWH's greatest trick was convincing mankind that he and satan were not one and the same individual.

I don't believe there is a heaven...

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