After one semester it's very easy to see why the society is so afraid of university education.

by JonathanH 20 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AGuest

  Rochelle,

  [Personal request to the OP (peace to you!): Please forgive the detour, but...]

  Aw, shoot... you went there, did'ja, dear Daddy-O (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!)? Dang!

  To the board... everyone look deep into my eyes and repeat: "I did NOT see that name. I did NOT see that name!" That person doesn't exist... except for on legal documents (like my passport). She is an unknown entity... just a placeholder for "AGuest" (which is my REAL name).

  You've decided to finally apply for the Bar! Good for you!

  Nahh... I'm just extending my Moral Determination of Moral Turpitude app, dear one... so that if I DO re-take it I've got all my stuff in. I was planning on taking it this past July but couldn't write/type all of a sudden. Hand, arm, shoulder just wouldn't "work". Diagnosis? Completely frayed tendon due to large bone spur were the culprits. Hence... shoulder surgery. I was planning to take it in February... but a recent... ummmm... career potential... may cause it to be put on hold yet again. I'll update you on that when we speak next.

  And THANK YOU for submitting to our State's Bar that I am worthy enough to be someone who is queried by them about your morals and ethics. I consider that a major compliment.

  Well, of COURSE! Who else would I put down? LOLOLOLOL! No, I thought you would like that! We've become such good friends I decided to "include" you in my "career" journey - LOLOLOL!

  I told them you were a dirtbag and didn't even finish filling out the rest of the form, though.

  Well, it IS a form... LOLOLOL! And since it's from the Bar most probably quite onerous. Sorry 'bout that (smile)!

  Just joking. After they read my answers, they just may offer you sainthood in addition to your legal ticket. I mailed the Office of Admissions my answers today.

  Thank you, my dear, dear friend... THANK you... TRULY!!

  For the record folks, about ten or eleven years ago Shelby and I battled over various issues and I told her she just needed to learn some logic.

  He did...

  She said she was willing to learn...

  I did... and was. Contrary to what some here may think of me (regarding a willingness to LEARN)...

  and so I pointed her in that direction.

  He did...

  Most recently, I put her to a test on logic and she blew through it with flying colors.

  You did? I DID??

  The Law deals in a lot of logic

  It does, dear one. As does Critical Thinking 101, Quantum Math (Logic) 201, and Philosophy 101 and 302. All of which I took (after you started "tutoring" me - LOLOLOL!)... and also passed "with flying colors" (i.e., 98-100... or "A+"). Which is why, when some question my "ability" to think or reason "logically... I kind of just laugh. I mean, whose opinion do I give the most credence to: my college professors... or some [of the yahoos] on this board?

  and my dear friend has learned it well.

  Thank you, dear one... for that... and for doing the Bar form. Truly.

  Farkel, Your Friend

  Yes. Indeed. Although I consider you much more than that, dear one...

  Again, thank you... and peace to you!

  YOUR servant... [grateful] little sister... and a slave of Christ,

  Shel
• 

  Band on the Run

  College transformed me in so many ways. I was finally around a peer group. Certainly, I no longer had any burden of being in the top of the class. I learned mostly liberal arts subjects. Some items I can recall after all these years, some are forgotten. The process is more important than facts learned. I attended Columbia and studied with some illustrious people. Sadly, they often were poor teachers. One of my best profs was Elaine Pagels who specializes in Gnosticism. I could not believe that New or Old Testament studies would even be taught at a secular university. I found that to get a good grade I could not research and write about any Witness influenced topic. It was not only Pagels who was intruiging. The other students were so cool. People discussed taking LSD and other hallucogens to induce a psychic break. I always fear a psychic break so it was amazing to have this perspective available to me. There were several Orthodox male Jews in class b/c it was a boost for medical school applications. They were the only ones who were correct on most assignments.

  Decades later, I would love to work in a university setting. My dream was to practice law and then teach law as I aged. I visit major universities around me just to soak up the culture and overhear the students. The possibilities are so endless when you are in college. I did have a top time transitioning from the Witnesses to college. It was well worth the effort. Yes, in my experience, the subjects are the least of the matter. High school seems like a joke in contrast.

  A Guest - an olive branch. I've read that CA and NY are the hardest bar exams. I was fortunate in the prep course I took in NY. If you attend a national law school, it is important to focus on a state law course. I did not go with BAR?BRI as a result. The medium sized company that had a strong NY component knew the questions and answers of several essays and many multistates. It seemed utterly ridiculous taking it. Only b/c of the course did I know what paper to file in Ononagata county. The BAR/BRI students were angry. So many years later I remain annoyed at the vast expenditure required to pass a bar exam.

  In my group, law review students did not fare well. Perhaps national law schools should focus on state law more. I don't see the point of three years of the rigors of law school and not be able to pass the bar. As with law school, there seemed to be no correlation between brightness, discipline, and passing. Many of the partners at leBoeuf failed the first few times around.

  I tried PA and failed. My disdain for PA prob did not help. It seems to have little to do with competence to practice law and a sorting mechanism to keep the legal market within constraints. I had professional massages after each day. They helped me enormously. My feet and legs felt like stone and ached so badly after sitting on a stone floor with stress for hours. Law schools should have to post their bar admission rates.
• 

  cyberjesus

  College transformed me in so many ways. I was finally around a peer group. Certainly, I no longer had any burden of being in the top of the class. I learned mostly liberal arts subjects. Some items I can recall after all these years, some are forgotten. The process is more important than facts learned. I attended Columbia and studied with some illustrious people. Sadly, they often were poor teachers. One of my best profs was Elaine Pagels who specializes in Gnosticism. I could not believe that New or Old Testament studies would even be taught at a secular university. I found that to get a good grade I could not research and write about any Witness influenced topic. It was not only Pagels who was intruiging. The other students were so cool. People discussed taking LSD and other hallucogens to induce a psychic break. I always fear a psychic break so it was amazing to have this perspective available to me. There were several Orthodox male Jews in class b/c it was a boost for medical school applications. They were the only ones who were correct on most assignments.

  Decades later, I would love to work in a university setting. My dream was to practice law and then teach law as I aged. I visit major universities around me just to soak up the culture and overhear the students. The possibilities are so endless when you are in college. I did have a top time transitioning from the Witnesses to college. It was well worth the effort. Yes, in my experience, the subjects are the least of the matter. High school seems like a joke in contrast.

  A Guest - an olive branch. I've read that CA and NY are the hardest bar exams. I was fortunate in the prep course I took in NY. If you attend a national law school, it is important to focus on a state law course. I did not go with BAR?BRI as a result. The medium sized company that had a strong NY component knew the questions and answers of several essays and many multistates. It seemed utterly ridiculous taking it. Only b/c of the course did I know what paper to file in Ononagata county. The BAR/BRI students were angry. So many years later I remain annoyed at the vast expenditure required to pass a bar exam.

  In my group, law review students did not fare well. Perhaps national law schools should focus on state law more. I don't see the point of three years of the rigors of law school and not be able to pass the bar. As with law school, there seemed to be no correlation between brightness, discipline, and passing. Many of the partners at leBoeuf failed the first few times around.

  I tried PA and failed. My disdain for PA prob did not help. It seems to have little to do with competence to practice law and a sorting mechanism to keep the legal market within constraints. I had professional massages after each day. They helped me enormously. My feet and legs felt like stone and ached so badly after sitting on a stone floor with stress for hours. Law schools should have to post their bar admission rates.
• 

  cyberjesus

  sorry sometimes i get lost.... what is this thread about?
• 

  ziddina

  "I have taken many philosophy classes, religion classes, and biology classes..."

  "After having attained a fairly high level of education, I still find it absurd the theory of evolution is being taught in schools. ..." maksym

  Pity that you haven't taken any - or sufficient - classes in geology or paleontology...
• 

  bohm

  maksym: but don't trade one authority for another. Colleges only teach what is the current understanding on things and they usually tend to go sway with the pressures of politics, the scientific community, and the current public model.

  then i would advice you to read the scientific publications/books themselves and form an informed oppinion, rather than relying on what is obviously a sub-standard teaching and application of academic principles.
• 

  AGuest

  A Guest - an olive branch.

  Of course, dear BOTR (as always, peace to you!)

  I've read that CA and NY are the hardest bar exams.

  Me, too! Given that only an average of 42% of current ATTORNEYS pass it (the CalBar)... and they don't even have to take the MBEs... I would say there's some truth to that - LOLOLOL!

  I was fortunate in the prep course I took in NY. If you attend a national law school, it is important to focus on a state law course. I did not go with BAR?BRI as a result.

  Yes... and I did take Bar-Bri the first time. Waste of $5,000 IMHO. Although I can't blame it all on them. I worked full-time (for me, 50-60 hours week, plus commuting 63+ miles a day/4 days a week - 23 to work, 26 from work to school, then 16 home... not to mention the miles between sites I oversaw) the entire time (except my last semester)... and so was utterly EXHAUSTED by the time I graduated and started Bar prep. And, unbeknownst to me, the "stress" of work, commuting, and law school had taken a toll on my physical health.

  The medium sized company that had a strong NY component knew the questions and answers of several essays and many multistates. It seemed utterly ridiculous taking it. Only b/c of the course did I know what paper to file in Ononagata county. The BAR/BRI students were angry. So many years later I remain annoyed at the vast expenditure required to pass a bar exam.

  Okaaaayyy? You mean, in addition to law school, right? Like another $10k just to PREP for the Bar (because while law school will teach you the law, it WON'T teach you to take/pass the Bar!)? Yes... I found that out... too late (second semester of 3rd year... by which time I had invested way too much in money and time to quit... and didn't really want to quit)... and was/am annoyed, as well.

  In my group, law review students did not fare well. Perhaps national law schools should focus on state law more. I don't see the point of three years of the rigors of law school and not be able to pass the bar.

  I don't either, but, again, apparently, passing the Bar is not the "purpose" of law school ("that's what Bar PREP is for," said at least one of my professors).

  As with law school, there seemed to be no correlation between brightness, discipline, and passing. Many of the partners at leBoeuf failed the first few times around.

  Again... okaaaayyy? At three yahoos (i.e., not the brightest crayons in the box but children of attorneys) in my class (of '08) cheated their way through school. Through EACH semester. No one said a word (although many knew)... because they were "cool" guys - the "popular" kids. I have NO doubt they cheated on the Bar, as well. There is just NO way they had to cheat through SCHOOL... and then miraculously had enough "knowledge" to pass the Bar. No frickin' way.

  I tried PA and failed. My disdain for PA prob did not help.

  Disdain for the industry (well, some parts of it and some who are a part of it), doesn't help, either. That's kind of what's happened with me: I just no longer respect many of the PEOPLE who practice (or perhaps teach, sorry) law. Was sort of neutral before law school. Not so much anymore (although I also have a lot more respect for the law... and some who practice it... as well. Like civil rights. No, seriously...).

  It seems to have little to do with competence to practice law and a sorting mechanism to keep the legal market within constraints.

  Girl, if you don't think that's California, then... Because there is NO WAY all of the lawyers... and law students... out here are competent. I've met some of these people. They may know what International Shoe is... or Palsgraf... or Erie... but, well, start talking about, say, Dred Scott or Brown vs. Board of Education... or anything that has some MEANING (or won't make them the corporate $$$ they're looking to make!)... and their eyes glaze over! Even get up and leave class, some! So the profs would skim over what, IMHO, were important cases/issues... in order to keep some of these, well, consider the kind of people they show themselves to be I'd have to say "losers"... happy. Ticked me OFF!

  I had professional massages after each day. They helped me enormously. My feet and legs felt like stone and ached so badly after sitting on a stone floor with stress for hours.

  Heeyyyyyyy... I didn't think of that. I can see where they're needed, though, and could be of great help - LOLOLOL!

  Law schools should have to post their bar admission rates.

  Yeah, but, well, the information is out there. I think (1) they should remember to mention that helping you pass the bar is NOT their goal, if that's truly the case; and (2) the country should consider the English court system (i.e., solicitors vs. barristers)... as I have NO desire to litigate (MUCH to adversarial for me!), but only help people get their "other" legal needs (most of which is simply a matter of filing some kind of proper paperwork by some kind of deadline) handled.

  Nice talkin' "law school" with you, dear BOTR. And, again, my apologies to the OP... to whom I would say, again: HANG IN THERE! University is wonderful and a WONDERFUL experience!

  Peace!

  SA, on her own... reminiscing about her marvelous times on the lovely CSU (Sac/Hayward) campuses...
• 

  maksym

  then i would advice you to read the scientific publications/books themselves and form an informed oppinion, rather than relying on what is obviously a sub-standard teaching and application of academic principles. - Bohm

  Much of a college education teaches you to read independently and thus form those opinions. However, normally colleges require reading material to be peer reviewed and triangulated. This forms the basis for the present standard. Anyone going to college for any length of time would know this.

  I have read many scientific journals, essays and literature and done an enormous amount of research on many subjects. Therefore I certainly have an informed opinion. It may not be the opinion you form but that is irrelevent. Nontheless there is no need to call university education substandard in the United States. Certainly there are schools that perhaps are lacking but I have found that generally speaking each one teaches similarly in style and content. My training was in the United States.

  Pity that you haven't taken any - or sufficient - classes in geology or paleontology...-ziddina

  The level of education and the content and exposure to a certain theory, philosophical position, or moral standard does not necesarrily impose that that belief system will prove to be true.

  And you are assuming I have not taken those classes?! And you are also assuming that those supposed classes are insufficient! Hmmm.
• 

  NewYork44M

  If done right, the college experience will teach you how to think critically. This is not allowed in jw land.
• 

  Band on the Run

  I agree that there are definitine trends in scholarship. History is no longer viewed as facts in time but movements. Actors, even such actors as Lincoln, Washington, Martin Luther King, do not matter. Others would fulfill the role they played. Jesus scholarshp has changed since I first started in the 1970s. Q was a well respected theory. Now hardly any scholar believes it.

  The point of college is not to learn facts. It enables you to read and be informed of the present scholarship. Many of my law school classes focused on what the law was in the Middle Ages. The profs get behind and you must learn the current law in a day or two. Analytical ability is taught. Before college,I believed anything that was printed in a book or magazine. I learned about the academic process in college. Now I am very conscious of the author's motives, training, publishing company, and what others believe. Facts come and go.

  I also believe that knowledge of current affairs is an important skill. When I read the New York Times, I no longer automatically believe. If the story is important, I see what the Wall Street Journal or Washington Post add. I am very conscious of editorical decisions. Most people who attend college go on to seek life-long education.