One of our posters here is Lunatic Faith.
I quite like one of her citations:
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." (Friedrich Nietzsche / 1844-1900)
Is true faith possible?
by freshstart 25 Replies latest jw experiences
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ballistic
sizemik, I like the stages - it's very true. I think after leaving I went from stage II back to stage I for about 6 months, then spent about 10 years in stage III and entered stage VI when I met my other half about 6 years ago.
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AGuest
True faith is entirely possible, dear freshstart (peace to you!); however, it is not necessarily EASY. It certainly is not blind or based merely on "belief," however. Bad spirits (aka "demons") believe...
As one Bible version most accurately describes it (the NWT, although that version is certain not the most accurate version; none are, but this one does describe faith accurately), faith is:
"The ASSURED EXPECTATION of things HOPED for... the EVIDENT DEMONSTRATION of REALITIES... though NOT BEHELD." Hebrews 11:1
What does this mean? It means that the person exercising faith (i.e., doing something to MANIFEST their faith) DOES so... because they HAVE received SOME manner of evidence, something that DEMONSTRATED... to THEM... that the thing they NOW hope for... they can EXPECT... with certain assurance.... although they didn't SEE this "evidence", this "something"... with their eyes of FLESH. Somewhere, somehow... SOMETHING occurred... something that MAY NOT have been discernable to their EYES (of flesh!)... that demonstrated... to them... so as to give them evidence... that the person and/or thing they were putting hope IN... would occur/do just as they were hoping.
It is NOT a matter of "I believe because I think I should," or "I believe because someone says I should." One believes... because one has been given some manner of evidence that CAUSES them to believe. That resultant belief may only be the size of a mustard seed, but it's enough.
For some, something they read ABOUT Christ and what he did/said provides the "evidence" THEY need... to put faith in him. They don't need to SEE (behold) HIM... in order to put faith IN him.
But... such one can undermine their own faith (as Peter did when he began to sink in the water)... when they begin to doubt what they KNOW to be true. Most do this. For example, most who profess to believe in Christ also say they BELIEVE... that he resurrected and rose from the dead. But if one asks these same people if Christ can/does SPEAK... they will deny that. What, though, is the point IN his resurrection... to LIFE... to BE alive... if he CAN'T speak? Some (the WTBTS) get around this "conundrum" by saying, "Oh, he's 'busy' sitting at God's right hand... waiting. And so, while he's waiting, he isn't speaking." Yet, these same people will warn you of "listening" to demons. Er?!
Yes, their position is that demons... who have NO authority, can/do/will speak to humans... but the Son of God, who was given ALL authority... in heaven AND on earth... CAN'T/DOESN'T/WON'T. Even though some have recorded/attested to/professed to hearing him!
What folks don't realize is that this thinking, that Christ can't/don't/WON'T speak... is one of the reasons they don't HEAR him: it is a LACK OF FAITH! In order to HEAR Christ... one must believe he IS... he is ALIVE... and that he DOES speak. Even to the "least" one. Or... that when they HEAR him... it IS him speaking... and not oneself, one's "conscience," or a demon. All of these, again, are a LACK of faith.
To EXERCISE true faith, then, one has to put off some of the "strongly entrenched" things learned at the feet of religion. Religion's JOB... is NOT to lead you to God (or Christ)... but to lead you AWAY: to MEN... and their false teachings/doctrines/prophesies, etc. Yes, they have some "truth" - indeed, if EVERYTHING they taught were lies... who would follow them? No one. In order to GET folks to follow them, however, they "reflect" their father and leader... and "transform [themselves] into angels [messengers] of light." And... as the "stupid and boisterous woman," (Proverbs 9:13-17) they do so LOUDLY. "Come HERE, turn THIS way!" she cries.
Christ, on the other hand... "WISDOM"... speaks in low tones. (Proverbs 8:4-36, particularly verse 7; 9:1-6) Even whispers, sometimes (Matthew 10:27). But always... ALWAYS... in truth. Always.
What stands between us and true faith? Several things can. The foremost thing is others: when we try to have a relationship with God... and we're going through anyone other than Christ... we are NOT "entering" into and before the Most Holy. We are actually trying to "break in"... and thus, are not given access because we are considered "thieves." (John 10:1-15) Christ is the DOOR, dear one... the ONLY "Door"... the "Narrow Gate,"... the "Way." NO ONE comes to the Father... except through HIM. (John 14:6) You can't, therefore, go through a pastor, pope, priest, elder, GB, FDS, religion, organization, association, etc. ONE is your mediator: Christ.
The second thing is our own flesh. For many, walking by SIGHT is the norm. We are physical beings as well as spirit beings (we are all spirits, "residing" in earthen "vessels", the body of flesh). These, the flesh and the spirit... are ENEMIES. One belongs to THIS realm... the other to the spirit realm. And so they each seek to serve their respective "homes." However, because we also currently RESIDE in the physical realm... with virtually NO access to the spirit realm (this is not entirely true, but largely true)... our flesh has more strength - its realm is its ally. And so the vessel is "drawn" to the realm from which it came... and seeks to change the spirit's loyalty to that realm, as well.
There is much, much more... but I will end here and reiterate that, yes, it is entirely possible to have TRUE faith. But, again, such faith is NOT blind; it just simply isn't reliant upon what one sees with one's eyes... of FLESH.
I hope this helps and, again, bid you peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
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cofty
These, the flesh and the spirit... are ENEMIES. One belongs to THIS realm... the other to the spirit realm. - AGuest
1 - There is no such thing as spirit, its just an imaginary thing that believers made up because they are afraid that this life is actually all we get
2 - Shelby is describing Platonic dualism, its nothing new.
3 - When Shelby (AGuest) talks about Jesus (actually she never calls him that, she calls him Yahudi Menuhin or something like that) speaking to her she means it literally; actual audible voices that tell her all sorts of stuff.
You could spend a lot of time investigating faith as I did or you could go with your hunch that there is no god. The second option is where you will end up eventually as long as you keep searching with an open mind and maintain a healthy skepticism. Enjoy the journey.
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leavingwt
I'm sorry that you feel so lost. Many of us have experienced this.
Please take 30 minutes and read the following essay, written in 1896. You are not alone.
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AGuest
1 - There is no such thing as spirit, its just an imaginary thing that believers made up because they are afraid that this life is actually all we get
Ahhh, dear Cofty (as always, peace to you!)... you again apparently misunderstand. May I ask you: if for some reason you lost all of your limbs, would "you" no longer be "you"? What if you had a heart transplant? Would "you" then become the person whose heart now beats in your chest? My point? "You"... are not just your body, dear one. "You" are the "person" that resides IN your body.
2 - Shelby is describing Platonic dualism, its nothing new.
Don't even know what that is, truly, so not sure how I can be describing "it". Other than to say that, perhaps, the very One who explained it to Plato is the same One who explained it to me. Which isn't all that far-fetched, seeing as Plato knew and was quite close to Socrates, my brother in Christ. I mean, if God spoke to Socrates... and apparently Plato had NO problem putting faith in this truth, as he actually recorded it... no reason to believe He didn't speak to Plato, as well. Through my Lord, His Word, of course...
3 - When Shelby (AGuest) talks about Jesus (actually she never calls him that, she calls him Yahudi Menuhin or something like that) speaking to her she means it literally; actual audible voices that tell her all sorts of stuff.
And you have a personal problem with this because? I mean, c'mon, don't be shy. If you want to malign me to the dear OP, then at least tell YOUR part of it, why YOU have a problem with "me." Of course, that assumes you can articulate that...
You could spend a lot of time investigating faith as I did or you could go with your hunch that there is no god.
You could, dear OP (again, peace to you!). Either is an option and the choice is entirely yours. Like those who wish to offer than there is no god... and thus, no need for faith, I simply offered that there IS [a God]... and what faith actually is, etc.
The second option is where you will end up eventually as long as you keep searching with an open mind and maintain a healthy skepticism.
Perhaps. Although, some have ended up with much more faith that when they started. Few, yes, but still. Given that the word is "Many are called but FEW are chosen," asking for, receiving, and cultivating more faith shouldn't be completely daunting. Again, not easy, but certainly not impossible. If you're afraid of "difficult", though... yes, the easy way (no faith, no god) is an option, always.
Enjoy the journey.
Indeed! Although going with dear Cofty's option as to following a hunch that there is no God (which, BTW, could also be a hunch that there IS a God) seems to negate a "journey." Suggests a very limited, once around the block and "we're there" kind of trek, IMHO. Not much of a "journey," if you ask me.
Either way... I again bid you both peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
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tec
I still feel the need to worship and the desire for faith, but having been raised as a JW and not knowing anything else, I just feel confused and lost as far as faith goes. Sometimes I think that maybe their isn't a God, I just don't know.....
I think what you're feeling is normal. I think you have had the rug swept out from under you, and knocked you off your feet. If a group has lied to you... then how do you know what to believe?
I was not a born-in, and I never went past a two year study or got baptized, but I still felt lost and alone after I stopped studying. I never doubted that there is a God. I had some faith before the JW's, and I have faith after them as well. But I no longer knew what to believe ABOUT God, or about His Son. Just as I wasn't sure what to believe about them before... only that they were there. I worried about it, I prayed, I studied the bible on my own, I paced the floor, frustrated with where I was going to find the truth now...
Then one day, I just stopped doing all of that. I was in my car, the sun was on my face, the wind was blowing through the window, and I just placed myself in God's hands, and asked Him to lead me wherever he wanted me to be. I had such a calm wash over me. I understood then the meaning of 'cast your worries upon him,' and the peace that comes with it, because that is what I felt. Peace.
You don't have to have all the answers, and you certainly don't have to have them all this very instant. Knowing nothing is actually a pretty good place to start. You don't have to go looking for "truth" in a religion, or stress about finding the right one. If you want truth or faith; you need only look at Christ: the Truth, the Life, and the image of God. See Christ; see God. And you can always ask for faith to be given to you. Then keep asking; keep knocking; keep seeking. The door will be opened.
"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."
He keeps His promises.
Peace and hope to you on your journey,
Tammy
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tec
There is no such thing as spirit, its just an imaginary thing that believers made up because they are afraid that this life is actually all we get
I'm sorry, Cofty. This might have been true of you, but it is not now, nor has it ever been, true of me. I follow Christ in faith, out of love for Him and God.
Not because I am afraid that this is it. I'm not afraid of that at all, even if this is it.
Peace,
Tammy
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freshstart
Thanks everyone, I especially appreciated the comments from SizeMik and LeavingWT. Interesting things to think about for sure....
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ABibleStudent
freshstart - I just feel confused and lost as far as faith goes. Sometimes I think that maybe their isn't a God, I just don't know.....
Hi freshstart, take a deep breath and enjoy your life's journey to discover who you are, what your values are, what you like, and what you believe. I believe in Our Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit because of experiences in my life.
The only recommendation that I will give you, is throw away your NWT Bible. If you want to study the Bible, get a respected study Bible with notations to help you understand how different Biblical scholars interpret the scriptures. When I read my NIV Study Bible, I focus on what Jesus Christ taught to help me understand the other scriptures and pray.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert