"Why are we Jehovah's Witnesses?"

by Englishman 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    This is straight from Touchstone Forum: http://www.touchstoneforum.org/

    "Why are we Jehovah's Witnesses?"


    Let me approach the ‘big picture’ from this angle.

    Jehovah’s Witnesses know that the Christian organization that they are affiliated with has made errors in the past. Some of what has been in error could be attributed to a simple progression of understanding, or as we would put it: “The light getting brighter”.

    On the other hand, some of it can be attributed to nothing more than error. Mistakes that needed correction. These kind of adjustments can not be attributed to just ‘new light’, these could be mistaken views where it may be difficult to determine the scriptural indication.

    Whatever, the case, we know that wrong viewpoints have existed. We may even entertain doubts currently about this or that view held by the organization. We ar aware that even organizationally, errors can be made.

    No one in their right mind would look upon these unfortunate events as something well and good. In fact, if that was ALL there was to look at in regard to Jehovah’s Witnesses, we would have all walked away a long time ago and the ‘organization’ would have dried up.

    However, that is not all there is to look at in relation to Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    Whereas anyone can look back and see the flaws of the organization of imperfect men, they also see the TRUTHS that this same organization has brought to light.

    You see:

    1. We are convinced scripturally that God has and is using an ‘organized’ people.

    2. We are convinced scripturally that the Trinity doctrine is in error.

    3. We are convinced scripturally that the eternal troment doctrine is in error.

    4. We are convinced scripturally that neutrality in the politics of this world is a must.

    5. We are convinced that warfare between nations should not be participated in by Christians

    6. We are convinced scripturally that there will be a paradisaic earth.

    7. We are convinced that God’s plan of salvation includes a thousand year reign where both the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected. Anyone who did not have proper opportunity to accept Christ will be given that opportunity then.

    8. We are convinced scripturally that pagan celebrations should be avoided.

    9. We are convinced scripturally that ‘morality’ is a must for Christians.

    10. We are convinced scripturally and scientifically that evolution is false.

    11. We are convinced scripturally that abortion is murder.

    12. We are convinced scripturally that the miraculous gifts of the spirit have passed away.

    13. We are convinced scripturally that drug abuse is wrong (including tobacco).

    14. We are convinced scripturally that God’s name is Jehovah (YHWH) and should be made known and used in our worship.

    15. We are convinced scripturally that it is wrong for Christians to become involved in the politics of this world.

    16. We are convinced scripturally that we are living in the last days of this wicked system.

    17. We are convinced scripturally that Satan is a real being who has challenged God’s sovereignty and the issue is currently being settled.

    18. We are convinced scripturally that homosexuality and sex outside of marriage is wrong.

    19. We believe scripturally that for unrepentant practicers of sin, disfellowshipping is in order.

    I suppose there are some other things I could add to the list but I think these will demonstrate the point. Despite the errors and corrections and any unfortunate results thereof, there is not another religious organization on earth that holds these things to be true that we are convinced of.

    We look at the ‘churches’ today who claim to represent God and we see nothing but error upon error. The churches are permeated with false teachings and inconsistencies and not just in the past, but currently. They support warfare and the shedding of innocent blood. They killed their ‘religious brothers’ who were on the ‘wrong’ side of the battlelines. And if the nations once again become involved in warfare, you can rest assured that “Christians” will once again pick up the guns and join in the bloodshed.

    So many of these ones who claim to be “Christian” at the same time believe in evolution, abortion, homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, celebrating pagan holidays, Trinity, hellfire, speaking in tongues, and the list goes on and on of things we are convinced from the Bible are not for true Christians.

    Because of that, we look back at the Christian organization known as Jehovah’s Witnesses, and yes, we see the error and the problems that have come about from the inevitable influence of imperfect men., but we know, in order for them to possess such powerful truths from the scriptures in comparison to the unclear, contradictory, unorganized churches of the world today, God MUST be with them. This recognition causes us to rethink the existence of the error, not as an indication that we should reject the only Christian organization that possesses the TRUTH in so many ways, but regard the error as what it is, the consequence of frail, imperfect humans who sometimes let their own thoughts get in the way of the direction of God’s spirit, much in the same way that Moses, David, Nathan, Peter and the Apostles did themselves.

    Maybe this recognition of what the rank and file Jehovah’s Witness feels will help this discussion board focus on the real issues to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Not the past errors or corrections and whatever unfortunate consequences that may have arose because of them, but in the final analysis, Scriptural teaching. What is the TRUTH according to the Bible? For these TRUTHS are the reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses ARE Jehovah’s Witnesses."

    Well, the points he makes are conveniently numbered. I don't care about the trinity one way or the other, but I think that some of these points need challenging.

    Englishman.

    Truth exists;only falsehood has to be invented. -Georges Braque

  • radar
    radar

    They are convinced!!

    Exactly, and they need to be told they are convinced constantly through their literature.

    What convinces them? their own mental reasoning ability?

    No, because all the reasoning is done for them by the weekly indoctrination of the Watchtower study.
    It is a case of, do you understand and agree with our reasoning.
    If you look to other educators you are unfaithfull to the Organisation and so to God.
    The conviction then is born from an isolated source.

    The very source of their Conviction lies in the transient teachings of Watchtower.

    A Japanese Kamakazi explodes his missile killing himself and his target. A Muslim suicide bomber does the same thing.
    They are convinced they have the "Truth", Worth dying for!!

    The source of conviction needs to be challenged.

    Scriptually, you can argue to the cows come home, maybe score a few points with those less knowledgeable than yourselves.

    I say, Go to the source!

    Radar

  • belbab
    belbab

    I thought they didn't believe in creeds,

    Is there anything difference between this and the Apostolic Creed?

    belbab

  • compton
    compton

    Jesus stated he had to gather other sheep which were not of the Jewish fold.
    The gentiles ! Haven;t the gentile times ended !
    Its now the Jews turn,and they are back in Palestine were they were prophetically
    told they would be at this time. they will be back as Jehovah's witnesses too. You
    must understand Jehovah is going to use them to MAGNIFY HIS GREAT NAME.
    the whole world is watching this.

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    I don't buy into this "Vindication of Jehovahs name" thing at all.

    The only reason that the name Jehovah is disliked is because the name has been hijacked by JW's.

    Englishman.

    Truth exists;only falsehood has to be invented. -Georges Braque

  • Andyman
    Andyman

    Yes, they need to be answered, but getting on this board is not easy. They started out trying to pretend that it was "open" but now they have "adjusted" the board and now openly admit that they will not allowe ex-JW's or JW's who question the beliefs or teachings of the society as members.

    Hawk has been there, and last week they deleted two of his posts because he posted for someone who was not a member, but wanted to voice his opinion. They said if a person wanted to get his voice heard they should join, but within hours Wrench had up the new "adjusted" rules for the board. Not very "open minded" if you ask me!

    There are at least 20 some people who have applied for membership to the board that still have not posted anything. I believe that most of them have been turned down, even some who were not ex-JW's but spoke out against them on the CARM boards. They seem to pick and chose, and I am surprised that Hawk and Skiingcowboy got on.

    What I wonder is what they would do at the door if someone told them these same things, pretty much, about their religion and said they would stay with the religion they were already in. Do you think the JW's would accept that or go to the reasoning book and explain to the
    "why they needed to look deeper into things"? [8>]

    Take care.

    Andyman:

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    So they are convinced scripturally. Great for them. Doesn't mean I have to be. Let them live how they want to live and don't worry so much about it. I don't.

    Cygnus, exJW sympathetic to JW believer class

  • waiting
    waiting
    1. We are convinced scripturally that God has and is using an ‘organized’ people.

    #1, Russell was convinced scripturally that there must be no organization. Or else that organized religion would end up as corrupt as the Catholic Church (his pet irritation.)

    4. We are convinced scripturally that neutrality in the politics of this world is a must.

    #4. Yeah, except when writing to dictators like Hitler. Just hand over those nasty, money-grubbing Jews to Hitler. Show that God's Organization has always condemned dirty Jews. This is what Jehovah's Witnesses did - in writing - during WWII.

    6. We are convinced scripturally that there will be a paradisaic earth.

    #6 Yeah, we're convinced our God's going to kill 99.9% of people on this earth - and any animal that gets in his way, and give the earth to those who "survive Armageddon" - Jehovah's Witnesses and those mentally unstable or in a coma.

    7. We are convinced that God’s plan of salvation includes a thousand year reign where both the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected. Anyone who did not have proper opportunity to accept Christ will be given that opportunity then.

    #7 "Proper opportunity" means that Jehovah's Witnesses offered literature to you. If you don't become a Jehovah's Witness, at Armageddon - God will kill you and any small children you have. Btw, I've never heard of the "proper opportunity to accept Christ." If one were to accept Christ - and not Jehovah and the WTBTS - would he still be acceptable to survive God's bloodbath?

    8. We are convinced scripturally that pagan celebrations should be avoided.

    #8. Interesting. Why don't Jehovah's Witnesses believe that pagan celebrations MUST be avoided.

    9. We are convinced scripturally that ‘morality’ is a must for Christians.

    #9. And we specifiy which laws in the Hebrew & Greek scriptures we want to define with our "must" morality. And it will change - note our continual swaying "must" stand on screaming during being raped.

    10. We are convinced scripturally and scientifically that evolution is false.


    #10. We don't believe in studying science where it contradicts with the Bible. We're convinced the WTBTS will do our studying for us. However, we believe that the formation known as the Niagra Falls was formed before the flood. See the recent Awake!

    13. We are convinced scripturally that drug abuse is wrong (including tobacco).

    #13. We're also convinced that partaking (and judging for ourselves) of however much alcohol (and alcohol acts as a depressant on our system just as barbituates do) is just fine, thank you.

    16. We are convinced scripturally that we are living in the last days of this wicked system.


    #16 - And we coined the term "last days of this wicked system of things" and we're convinced it can mean anything we want.

    I suppose there are some other things I could add to the list but I think these will demonstrate the point. Despite the errors and corrections and any unfortunate results thereof, there is not another religious organization on earth that holds these things to be true that we are convinced of.

    Now THAT is the damned dumbest statement made so far! Just because I'm convinced of something does not make it true - no matter how close I hold it! I am convinced I will win the lottery!!!!!!

    The churches are permeated with false teachings and inconsistencies and not just in the past, but currently.

    So are Jehovah's Witnesses, as we have admitted.

    They support warfare and the shedding of innocent blood.

    We will shed the lives of our sick by refusing blood transfusions or components of blood that the WTBTS decides upon - because components are never mentioned in the Bible. LOL - "God is on our side."

    but we know, in order for them to possess such powerful truths from the scriptures in comparison to the unclear, contradictory, unorganized churches of the world today, God MUST be with them.

    Paraphrased: The other churches are so bad in our opinion, God MUST be with Jehovah's Witnesses. Yeah, that's proof of TRUTH!

    What is the TRUTH according to the Bible? For these TRUTHS are the reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses ARE Jehovah’s Witnesses."

    Ahhhhhh, "the TRUTH". What is the TRUTH? Can it be proven scientifically? No. Biblically without doubt? No. Can the Bible be proven without a doubt? No. Can God be proven without a doubt? No.

    So, the Jehovah's Witness's TRUTH, which is so convincing to a JW believer, is based on emotion - because it can't be proven. Which is what they condemn every other religious person in the world for - believing because of emotion.

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    I think its very telling which one he put first. That the number one truth is that god needs an organization in order to communicate with people.

    Joel

  • JanH
    JanH

    There has been some sociological studies of 'evangelistic' (as in preachy) sects and what cause people to convert, for example by Rodney Stark. Stark and some others started studies of a newly imported (to the U.S.) obscure sect, later known as the Unification Church (Moonies). They interviewed converts during the process, and found that only in hindsight did they attribute the conversion to religious arguments and doctrines. Those who converted were exclusively people attracted to the movement through existing social networks: family, friends, workmates, etc. The conversion followed bonding with members of the sect, and doctrines were pretty uninteresting.

    In this light, it is obvious that JWs could be convinced about almost anything once they had been attracted to the sect. The "scriptural" justification is at best secondary. Religiousity is about social networks and emotions.

    Yet, I'll make a few comments on each topic:

    1. We are convinced scripturally that God has and is using an ‘organized’ people.
    In the Bible, religious conflict is typically between institutional religion on one side and one zelous hero and his few followers on the other. The Bible texts typically side with the individual worshipper against the oppression of the establishment. It is hard to imagine a doctrine that is more contrary to both the spirit and the words of the Bible, NT and OT alike.
    2. We are convinced scripturally that the Trinity doctrine is in error.
    It is worth nothing that JWs typically lists a negative doctrine instead of what they believe themselves. An atheist will agree the trinity is in error, after all. JWdom's Christology is at least as difficult to substantiate as the orthodox Trinity doctrine. Their angel-christology, so maligned by evangelical opponents, is directly contradicted in e.g. Hebrews. No wonder they concentrate on attacking the competing doctrine.
    3. We are convinced scripturally that the eternal troment doctrine is in error.
    Russell was convinced on an ethical basis, and only in hindsight were able to convince himself that he could find support for this in the Bible, through some imaginative excusogetics (sic). There is simply no doubt that the NT teaches eternal torment for the wicked. Yes, it is a morally repugnant doctrine, but the "scriptural" basis for conditonalism is far from convincing. Just look at the loops the WTS has to jump through to explain the "lake of fire" in Revelation.
    4. We are convinced scripturally that neutrality in the politics of this world is a must.
    This is a totally bizarre teaching. The "scriptural" support is limited to an anachronistic reading of the command to be apart from the world. The NT authors hardly had democracies in mind. Any 1st century reader would consider this a command to not be morally tarnished by "the world." It is also totally absurd when the WTS denies its members involvment in two of the three branches of government; how come the judicial branch is not as much a part of "the world" as the legislative and executive?
    5. We are convinced that warfare between nations should not be participated in by Christians
    Violence and warfare is hardly foreign to the Bible. The first gentile Christian was an officer in the armed forces of a nation accupying and brutally oppressing Palestine. Perhaps it is no coincidence that the word "scripturally" is absent from the sentence above, as no such argument can be found in the NT.
    6. We are convinced scripturally that there will be a paradisaic earth.
    It's debatable at best whether the NT teaches this.
    7. We are convinced that God’s plan of salvation includes a thousand year reign where both the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected. Anyone who did not have proper opportunity to accept Christ will be given that opportunity then.
    Any doctrine based solely on the obscure visions in Revelation is bound to run into problems with other NT books, and this surely does.
    8. We are convinced scripturally that pagan celebrations should be avoided.
    I'd like to see which "scriptures" argue this point. On the contrary, e.g. Paul argued xtians should not be divided over festivals, what to eat when, etc.
    9. We are convinced scripturally that ‘morality’ is a must for Christians.
    I doubt any sane human being disagree that morality is good. That is more or less the definition of 'morality.' But of course, we know what this means. It is xtianity's obsession with sexual restrictions again, and JWs fall broadly into the mainstream here. And, of course, they are as much hypocrites as the other moralists.
    10. We are convinced scripturally and scientifically that evolution is false.
    Through a literalistic reading of Genesis chapter one JWs like other fundie groups have forced themselves to reject most of the sciencies of biology and geology. While being old earth creationists (and thus really rejecting a literalistic reading of Genesis), JWs require their members to be pitifully ignorant about science and the natural world generally. The 'scientific' arguments are exclusively misquotations, misrepresentations and unscientific nonsense the average JW is too ignorant to see through.
    11. We are convinced scripturally that abortion is murder.
    Along with practically all conservative Christians and quite a few other religionists. Interestingly, the few times the Bible actually says anything about this topic, it does not fall down on the side of the anti-abortionists. Whatever the NWT tries to make it say, the law of Moses did not consider a fetus a human being like its mother.
    12. We are convinced scripturally that the miraculous gifts of the spirit have passed away.
    The scriptual arguments are dubious, but it's quite obvious that JWs are not a very spiritual religion, in any sense of the word.
    13. We are convinced scripturally that drug abuse is wrong (including tobacco).
    The 'scriptural' arguments here are so bogus they hardly deserve mention.
    14. We are convinced scripturally that God’s name is Jehovah (YHWH) and should be made known and used in our worship.
    There is not a shred of evidence any early Christian, or Jesus himself, even uttered the divine name. JWdom has an exceptionally weak case in this question.
    15. We are convinced scripturally that it is wrong for Christians to become involved in the politics of this world.
    Like neutrality above, and same comments applies.
    16. We are convinced scripturally that we are living in the last days of this wicked system.
    As have Christians been for the last 2000 years. All JW "last days" arguments are soundly debunked, both the 607-1914 chronology and the "end time signs".
    17. We are convinced scripturally that Satan is a real being who has challenged God’s sovereignty and the issue is currently being settled.
    Most conservative Christians say that Satan is a real person. I think it is obvious the NT authors agreed with this, but then, they also believed that insantity was caused by demons. The "soveregnity" doctrine portrays God as a power-freak with very low self esteem. And it's certainly not very Biblical. The NT is focused on salavtion, not 'sovereignity'.
    18. We are convinced scripturally that homosexuality and sex outside of marriage is wrong.
    So are most other conservative Christians. The Biblical arguments are clearly strong, if not as solid as some would like to think. As is usually the case, the ethical considerations are put aside in JWdom.
    19. We believe scripturally that for unrepentant practicers of sin, disfellowshipping is in order.
    If DFing were merely termination of membership, that would not have been a hot issue. However, the shunning doctrine is hardly Biblical, and certainly grossly unethical. One real mark of shame for JWdom.

    The absense of the blood doctrine in this list was notable.

    - Jan
    --
    - "How do you write women so well?" - "I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability." (Jack Nicholson in "As Good as it Gets")

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