Looking for advice/thoughts/opinions RE Celebrating Xmas
by stuckinlimbo 34 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
stuckinlimbo
testing 123???
-
stuckinlimbo
Ok sorry about that will do my original post soon sorry... stay tuned
-
Iamallcool
try google chrome
-
stuckinlimbo
Hi all. I am actually an addict of this site, but on my iPhone, so I only get to post spasmodically. I would really appreciate any help/advice/thoughts about my dilemma as to when/if to begin celebrating Christmas (in a secular fashion, I am an atheist) with my nearly 3 year old son. The issue is being somewhat circumvented this year, as we will be celebrating with a friend who lives far away, but next year, when my son will be four, I am concerned I will have to make a choice.
To give a bit of background, my husband and I faded, abruptly, about five years ago. My parents, who live in the same town and care for my son 2 days per week, are lovely people who have a great relationship with their grandson. They are in their 70s and the religion has been their whole life. Even if I could open their eyes, I don’t know if I would want to (yeah I probably would but I guess that would be selfish). I have told my mother a lot of the problems I have with the society (sorry, now more commonly the “organisation”), but they don’t shun me and hold on to the futile hope that I will someday change my mind. We don’t speak about it anymore as it just brings tears. I might have a dig every now and then about something, but I don’t push it. They still give me the magazines. I think they know I am quite vehemently opposed but haven’t called me an “apostate”yet. I think they are actually good people who are not completely blinded. They are the type who are under the false impression they can still follow the Bible first rather than the Society. Anyway I am going off on a tangent...
My older brothers are hard-core, we speak perhaps once per year. However, there is an annual visit to my parents (ironically at Xmas) from one brother who lives far away and his young family including his two boys that are close in age to my son, so this is a plus for my son, albeit rare. There are no real issues or love lost either with my husband’s parents, who also live far away and visit occasionally.
So that is the situation. We are not officially shunned, but the only people we are having regular contact with are my parents (and my Dad’s an elder by the way). This contact is the most important, although it is nice to enjoy no official sanctions with anybody else, although some witnesses do shun us.
My problem is my child is not a JW, never has been and never will be (too smart). I don’t want him to go through THE HELL I did being an outcast/weird at school. I don’t want him to explain to his friends in the future that we “can’t have a xmas tree because my grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins might get upset and not speak to my parents anymore...”
I WANT that family tradition (obviously just our little family) of decorating/celebrating/nice food/belonging that goes along with Xmas. I just wonder if that’s selfish considering it could drive my immediate family to shun us/get us officially DFd/DAd. I pick up magazines/catalogues featuring xmas trees etc and I want to cry. I just want to be normal and not have our lives controlled anymore. I even had to avoid the xmas tress at a store the other day as I kept feeling like crying. It’s pathetic. We are financially secure but it would not be nice to be written out of my parent’s will either. Apart from anything else, there is stuff with sentimental value that I would like to have the opportunity to have when my parents are gone. They also still live in the house I grew up in, and being barred from that would hurt too. I just don’t know if they’d actually shun us. If we were officially kicked out my dad could/would be removed as an elder for still having contact with us too.
So that’s my problem. I’ll do another thread for the birthday problem...
-
stuckinlimbo
Got Firefox going ta! I was trying to use Puffin for Ipda but the keyboard doesn't interact very well with the posting box...
-
NewChapter
If you want to do it, and you hold back because of this cult, you are still being controlled. It's a tough choice. What is more important to you, that your child have a normal upbringing, or that you remain undercover? Both have consequences. you left to be free. But shunning hurts. Really think about the consequences and the kind of life you want for you child. If a bunch of cult controlled people are so terrifed of you, they can no longer speak to you, then that is their problem. YET this is your family. So not so clear.
We can't tell you what to do. For myself I'd do Christmas and kiss the inheritence goodbye. But that's me.
NC
-
stuckinlimbo
Thanks for your thoughts NC! Yes I do want him to have a normal/beneficial upbringing that turns him into as happier person as possible. But I also don't want to ruin his good relationship with his grandparents. At the moment I don't think my mum is teaching him anything about the religion, but I am concerned that if he visits unsupervised when he is older (she will only be looking after him for me for the 2 days per week for another month), and we are DAd/DFd, they may think they have a right not to respect our views and try to push their beliefs on him, if visits are with me, this won't happen. So that's an issue too.
-
OnTheWayOut
Hello, is it possible to make an attempt to take your boy into some confidence then do the decorations and tree at the last minute and take them down again? I mean, he'd still get the thrills and maybe you could simply keep your hardcore bro out of your house for a couple days. Explaining to him (your son) might not keep him silent, but it would help him understand there's still Christmas, but it's a bit different. Remind him not to talk Christmas with his cousins right before seeing them.
It's a tough road with kids. You might also try telling your mom that you don't want Jr. to miss out or be ostracized, so could she simply get your bro. to back off and leave it alone, keep his kids out of your house and meet elsewhere?
Of course, any efforts might blow up in your face but you can say you tried.
-
Bella15
Quite a pickle you're in. I don't know if you've ever talked to a professional counselor after leaving the Watchtower cult. I once called myself atheist but years later I learned that it was label I gave MYSELF to cope. When you go deeper into the subject, depending on how your brain handled/processed the cult "trauma," it can be PTSD, and if you don't deal with it and heal you'll find yourself doubting about many things in life. Today it is Christmas, and as your son and future children grow up it will be something else tomorrow... my children are 13 and 14 now by the way, so I have a little experience. With all respect to all atheists, if you turn this way after leaving a cult, it would be beneficial to look in to PTSD and see if you find yourself in there, not for you to believe in God again but so you can live a healthy life and enjoy all the stuff that life is made of, and get the WTC cult out of your life ... the Universe has a way of turning things on our favor sometimes ... as a man thinks he becomes ... perhaps if you hold your ground your family will respect you ... you may be so surprise ... DO NOT SACRIFICE YOUR CHILDREN TO THE WATCHTOWER CORPORATION - if you abstain from doing things for fear of upsetting your JW family I am sorry but then you are still under their control and it is not fair to your children. You want to be 100% in the moment, fully involved and invested in the things you do with your family.
Atheists and Christmas:
There is a debate among atheists about whether they should celebrate Christmas or not. Some do so because they aren’t out as atheists. Some do so in order not to rock the boat among religious family members. Some do so because they always have and don’t want to change — or simply enjoy the holiday. Others argue that it should be replaced by a more rational holiday, and still others argue that all such holidays should be ignored by atheists. Is there a case to be made for this?
Christmas is a Christian Holiday:
Traditionally, Christmas has basically been a Christian holiday — it is, after all, Christ’s Mass where the Nativity of Jesus is celebrated. Many atheists don’t believe that Jesus existed, and those who do don’t regard him as having been anyone special. No atheists are Christians, so why bother participating in such a Christian holiday? It’s arguable that participating makes Christianity seem more popular than it really is, not to mention giving Christians an unjustified ego boost.
Celebrating Christmas Perpetuates Myths About America:
Among the possible harms created by atheists celebrating Christmas is that conservative evangelical Christians are bolstered in their argument that America is essentially a Christian nation. The more popular and important Christian holidays are in America, the easier it is to claim that there is something about Christianity which is fundamental to America’s culture. It’s not a very good argument and this isn’t very good support for it, but why offer them even this little bit of help?
Elements of Christmas are Pagan:
Although Christmas has traditionally been a Christian holiday, most elements of modern Christmas celebrations are really pagan. This isn’t a very good reason for atheists to celebrate Christmas, though, because atheists aren’t pagan any more than they are Christian. Atheists don’t uphold other ancient pagan superstitions, so why do so with those which happen to be popular at Christmas time? There’s nothing about ancient paganism which is any more rational than modern Christianity.
Why Not Celebrate Other Religious Holidays?:
If an atheist is surprised at the possibility of not celebrating Christmas, they should consider why they don’t celebrate other religious holidays. Few atheists do anything for the Muslim holiday of Ramadan or the Christian holiday of Good Friday. Why make an exception for Christmas? The primary reasons seem to be cultural momentum: everyone does and most people have all their lives, so it’s difficult to change. This may be true, but it’s not a very good reason not to change.
Christmas and Lying:
Atheist parents who celebrate Christmas will probably include the Santa Claus myth, but this requires them to lie to their kids. There’s no nicer way of describing what one does when telling small children that Santa Claus really exists and delivers presents to children all over the world. There doesn’t appear to be anything which justifies this deception, especially since there are many ways in which it might prepare kids for belief in Christian doctrines. Is this worth the risk?
Does Ignoring Christmas Help or Hurt Kids?:
Atheist parents are in a very difficult bind when it comes to Christmas because there are strong incentives to do what other parents are doing. Not celebrating Christmas and not telling kids about Santa might cause their children to be ostracized from others. At the same time, though, the numbers of religious minorities who also don’t participate are increasing, thus increasing the numbers of kids who are “different.” Being different isn’t easy, but who wants to be a hypocrite just to fit in?
Should Atheists Celebrate Any Holidays?:
Once the question about celebrating Christmas is introduced, the next logical step is to wonder whether atheists should be celebrating many or any of the holidays traditionally observed. Tom Flynn, for example, argues that “a humane holiday should be global and universal, equally relevant to all humans, regardless of their cultural heritage or where they live.” Leaving aside problems like separating holidays from the rhythm of our experience of time, this is worth thinking about.
Christmas as a Secularized Holiday:
One possible reason for atheists to celebrate Christmas is that it has become increasingly secularized over time and there is little sign of the process stopping soon. Arguments against Christmas remain, but atheist participation in Christmas actually helps serve the cause of removing it from its various Christian and pagan roots. There are good reasons why many Christians are upset over the current state of Christmas, and those may be good reasons for atheists to keep the changes in motion.
Future of Atheists and Christmas:
The relationship between atheists and Christmas today is complicated and there is no reason to think that it will change any time soon. Some atheists will continue to celebrate it fully, some will celebrate only portions, and others will reject it — with some of these creating alternative holidays and the smallest minority not bothering with any holidays at all. I really don’t see the relative positions and numbers changing much because I think that all of this is dependent upon atheists’ relationship with the broader American culture.
So long as atheists seek to be accepted and “normal” in America, they will tend to avoid doing things which will cause them to be singled out as different or strange. Today there is nothing more American than celebrating Christmas, so atheists who want to fit in will also at least do something around Christmas time. The growing numbers of religious minorities who reject Christmas may make being different a little easier, but even they are adopting some of the trappings of Christmas, too. Major shifts in this don’t strike me as very likely.
The fact that Christmas has become so secularized will also likely prevent many atheists from abandoning Christmas. If the day retained a significant Christian element, self-conscious atheists would be more sympathetic to anti-Christmas arguments, but that’s just not the case anymore. A secularized holiday is easy for secular people to celebrate.
So-called “alternative” holidays won’t make much progress because in the end, it’s clear that they aren’t any more “rational” than Christmas. Their primary benefit, such as it is, is their role in identity politics for atheists: having their very own holiday can make atheists feel more secure and comfortable in their social group, giving them something substantive to identify with. It’s hard to see, however, why identity politics is something which atheists really should try to engage in.