UK charity "Refuge" gives response to WT article on domestic abuse

by cedars 43 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  cedars

  soft+gentle - just when I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt, you come out with more deluded rhetoric that exposes you as an apologist, and a very devious one at that. You tell me to apply my own counsel to myself? I have never suggested, in any of my work on domestic abuse, that EVERY christian wife is a victim of violence! I have been very careful to word my article and any advice that I give based on facts, not inuendo. When I talk about those who DO experience domestic abuse as a direct result of the Society's negligence, I always refer to them without dogmatically suggesting how numerous these poor women are, or what percentage of Christian women they make up. I simply know that they exist, they are out there somewhere. That is obvious from the experiences that have already been coming in over on my blog. In my opinion, if there is a SINGLE woman out there who is experiencing domestic abuse because of advice from the Society, that is one woman too many. You, on the other hand, try to weaken the severity of the subject by daring to suggest that "most of the truly horrifying cases of domestic abuse" happened 10 years ago. How can you POSSIBLY know that, simply from talking to a few people on JWN?? That is hopeless arrogance and naivety to the extreme.

  If you are going to make insensitive or offensive remarks, please can you do it on a subject that does NOT involve women being abused? You seem to have an axe to grind against me personally. Please can you do it on another thread that does not deal with such a sensitive issue as this?

  this subject can quickly lead to hysteria and to be quite honest you do sometimes sound quite hystercial yourself as in your recent thread OP "I'm doing more research into domestic violence as part of a response to the notorious "wife beating" article in the Feb 2012 Watchtower".

  Sometimes you sound as naive as JW elders themselves.

  What part of the above statement of mine, which you highlight in bold, shows naivety on my part? Do you even know what the word "naive" means? Please use a dictionary before you make accusations against me in future.

  Cedars
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  soft+gentle

  cedars this statement refers to your tendency towards hysteria

  this subject can quickly lead to hysteria and to be quite honest you do sometimes sound quite hystercial yourself as in your recent thread OP "I'm doing more research into domestic violence as part of a response to the notorious "wife beating" article in the Feb 2012 Watchtower".

  whilst your being naive relates to my entire post. And you have not provided proof to rebutt that there has been a change over time.

  I have also talked extensively to UK charities and contextualise domestic violence as being part of a much larger problem of societal structure. Plus that 1 in 4 women suffer violence in their homes in society at large according to the charity refuge. The problem of domestic violence amongst JWs and the comments in the Watchtower needs to be seen in this light and taken on board.

  and there is no need to be offensive and tell me that I am a JW apologist especially as there is general hysteria on JWN regarding annyone who is given this epithet. So please stop making offensive remarks towards me that are likely to generate abuse here on JWN.
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  cedars

  soft+gentle - to be honest, I don't want to dignify much of what you say with a response, but I cannot help but highlight how absurd some of your statements are.

  You say that the following quote (from me) demonstrates my tendency towards hysteria:

  "I'm doing more research into domestic violence as part of a response to the notorious "wife beating" article in the Feb 2012 Watchtower".

  It is for anyone reading this thread to decide whether or not those words of mine above demonstrate a tendency towards hysteria. I would suggest that they most certainly don't. My quoted words simply state that I was, at the time, doing research into domestic abuse in the wake of a Watchtower article that is now notorious on JWN. Again, perhaps I can point you in the direction of a good dictionary to find out what the word 'hysteria' means.

  You then say the following:

  your being naive relates to my entire post. And you have not provided proof to rebutt that there has been a change over time.

  The burden of proof is not on me to give evidence that there has NOT been a change (or improvement) over time. You are the one who has stated rather categorically that in the last 10 years instances of domestic abuse have grown less serious, so the 'burden of proof' rests on you to back up the claims that YOU have made. Your evidence? Talking to people on JWN. When pressed on the issue, you now reveal that you have been in "extensive" dialogue with domestic abuse charities - something that you have not mentioned in any of your previous comments. This leads me to suspect that, like Mankkeli, you are prone to inventing credentials for yourself on the spot.

  Finally:

  and there is no need to be offensive and tell me that I am a JW apologist especially as there is general hysteria on JWN regarding anyone who is given this epithet. So please stop making offensive remarks towards me that are likely to generate abuse and this too is a form of violence towards women

  soft+gentle - you seem to think you can say whatever you like about me with impunity, but the moment I call you an "apologist" I am apparently putting your life in peril. You ARE an apologist, because on more than one thread in which I have tried to suggest ways of increasing awareness of harmful JW dogma, you have attempted to minimise my efforts or otherwise subvert them by talking down the seriousness of the issues at hand. I find it offensive that you are choosing to do this on the topic of domestic abuse, where women's lives and wellbeing are endangered by the damaging advice that continues to be issued by the Society. If I were you, I would stop thinking about how others on this forum view you, and start thinking about the wellbeing of others - most notably JW women who are victims (or potential victims) of domestic violence.

  Cedars
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  soft+gentle

  cedars, and I sugget you give attention to your methods of misrepresenting me in order to deny what I am saying, this is a typical JW mechanism except that they say is we need to save all those sighing and groaning so stop thinking about how others view you and start thinking about the wellbeing of others (or something very similar). Or to women who have been abused they say stop focusing on your own problems and start focusing on saving people's lives in the ministry. You are employing the same rhetoric

  For myself I am deeply concerned about any kind of abuse whether it is inside jwdom or outside.
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  soft+gentle

  as for this comment of yours - all I can say is that it is very reckless -

  When pressed on the issue, you now reveal that you have been in "extensive" dialogue with domestic abuse charities - something that you have not mentioned in any of your previous comments. This leads me to suspect that, like Mankkeli, you are prone to inventing credentials for yourself on the spot.

  can you hear the hounds?

  Others in the past have said "JWN is what it is" but this does not mean one should take whatever comes when the bullies come out in force
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  cedars

  Hi soft+gentle - thanks for your comments. I suggest in future that you direct any criticism of me (or my methods) to a PM, or perhaps you can comment on threads where the subject matter is not so sensitive. Every time I refute your arguments you side-step the issue and come out with something else, so getting involved in a protracted argument that detracts from the serious issues that this thread deals with is pointless and counter-productive.

  I look forward to your PM.

  Cedars
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  soft+gentle

  cedars I'm not pm-ing you as I do not wish to have any private dialogue with you but I would be glad if you would take on board what I have said together with the response from the charity in your OP - this response and what they say about domestic abuse in general is important for addressing the issue of the WTS' stance on domestic violence.
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  cedars

  Hi soft+gentle - you've given me yet another sidestep, I really can't keep up with you anymore. First you say that the issue of domestic violence in the organization has improved in the past 10 years, then I tell you that it is silly to make such a sweeping statement without any evidence, then you call me naive and prone to hysteria, and say that your 'evidence' is talking to people on JWN. Then I prove to you that the things I have said do not show any naivety or hysteria, that you are an apologist and that you have still not given any evidence. Then you say that your evidence is that you have spoken "extensively" to domestic abuse charities (thereby implying that THEY say domestic violence among JWs has abated over the last 10 years), and accuse me of being reckless and putting your life in danger by calling you an apologist. Now, you are telling me that I am ignoring the very response from Refuge that I am seeking to promote on this thread. I really think you should seek professional help, although I can't say I would envy whichever psychiatrist gets the job of trying to untangle your warped reasonings. It might also be worth brushing up on your English, particularly the meaning of words such as 'naive' and 'hysteria'.

  The more you keep changing your argument and evading my responses, the more you implicate yourself as an apologist who is seeking to hijack this thread. If you are genuinely concerned about me or my methods, and have any respect for the sensitivity of this thread and the plight of abused women, please PM me and we can discuss it. I won't entertain your baffling logic and meandering criticism any longer on here.

  Cedars
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  Alfred

  My cousin, an ex-bethelite, used to beat his wife constantly... his wife either denied it or justified it (to prevent reproach on Jehovah's name, etc.) but the truth eventually came out, and her parents took her in... don't know if they ever got divorced or not but they're definitely not under the same roof any more...

  When we were kids, I could tell he was always filled with rage for whatever reason... My brother and I used to always wonder why he got so worked up whenever we played with his toys since we never had a problem when he played with ours...

  But as the years passed, he became extremely "spiritual", got promoted to MS, went to Bethel, got married to a pioneer and everything appeared to be just fine... he was completely transformed into this "model" christian rarely seen in any congo...

  And then the rage came out all over again... we don't know what sparked it, but he began beating his wife over a period of several years and the BOE did little or nothing to stop it simply because she kept defending him and saying everything was finally OK...

  But to answer your question... you're not being dramatic at all... this is a serious life-or-death issue that needs to be exposed to the media...
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  soft+gentle

  cedars it is your logic that is baffling as you are drawing implications that I have not indicated, you appear to be sabotaging yourself without any help from me - please go back and read my replies.

  I am particularly concerned with your views on this topic as you appear to have a contact in the media and if there is a possibilty that the newspapers may be interested in this story I am keen to minimise hysteria (but not the facts of course) as far as possible as my own family have received threats of violence from a pro xjw apologist in my area.