Independent verification of Mexico Vs. Malawi

by Knowsnothing 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Knowsnothing

  I posted on manki's Crisis of Conscience thread the following, and decided it deserves a thread of it's own (giving it was completely ignored, lol)

  I'll give you a head start, manky.

  http://tearsofoberon.blogspot.com/2009/10/mexico-military-and-jwsthe-truth.html

  Under the subheading 6.0 Lies and exaggerations, he goes on to say this:

  Feb 4, 1960: Branch writes WTS with question. June 2, 1960: WTS answers. Aug 27, 1969: Branch writes again to WTS . Sept 5, 1969: WT answers and refers to wrong letter dated Feb 4, 1960. The branch really quoted the June 2, 1960 letter. WT mistake or Ray Franz/Don Cameron mistake?

  It would be good to follow up on this, although I don't have the book with me on hand. Can anyone provide more info?

  EDIT: I have the book with me, I just don't have the time right now to look into it further. Could anyone disprove this claim?
• 

  cedars

  If I recall, that timeline is wrong - or at least misleading. The Mexico/Malawi thing was "uncovered" because the Society were getting complaints about their approach to non-combatant military service. As I recall, THEY wrote to the Mexico branch (having already advised them on the use of the "Cartilla" card) and asked them if there were any issues over military service. The mexico branch more or less wrote back and said that military service was no longer an issue for them because they now had permission to bribe officials for Cartillas. I can't remember the details or dates, and I apologise if I am over-simplifying events, but I don't think the timeline offered in your OP isn't quite reflective of what happened.

  Cedars
• 

  cedars

  I was wrong, it was the BRANCH writing to the Society in 1969.

  However, here is a link to the 1969 mexico branch letter, and it very clearly refers to a letter dated Feb 4th 1960 (the notorious 'bribery is ok' letter). The subsequent June 2nd 1960 letter is referred to, because this touches on the matter of military service that I alluded to in my previous post. However, the "Lies and Exaggerations" post that you refer to seems to contain a few 'exaggerations' of its own. See for yourself.

  http://www.jwfacts.com/images/mexico-bethel-1969.jpg

  Cedars
• 

  diamondiiz

  Before commenting on downplaying the events of 1960s that are presented by 3rd witness, I would like to see references to Mexican conscription policies of the 1960s. Without that, it's "he said, she said" scenario.

  Not directly saying this, I would like to point out that a bribe is a bribe even though it's culturally acceptable. I know for a fact, that the practice was "acceptable" in Poland and majority done so to get their business processed faster. But if you had balls enough to stand up to the corruption you could get things done without a bribe but obviously it was easier to pay the clerk. I know of witnesses bribing Ecuador officials to get their visas extended which again one questions why one wrong is ok while another grey area like Malawi document is so bad? While the site implies that all apostates make it sound like all JW were bribing officials which in itself is a huge exaggeration. What the writer does, is focus on downplaying Mexican problem while ignoring the deaths of many witnesses in Malawi because of wts stance.

  added: I will take a look at the references there if anything deals with the 1960s time frame.
• 

  diamondiiz

  from wiki but haven't researched the past policies

  Conscript Soldiers

  Legally, every Mexican man is obligated to a year of servicio militar nacional—SMN (national military service—NMS), but only a few hours of drill or social services on weekends, not true military training. Most conscripts will have received at most only one marksmanship session at a rifle range by the time they have completed their NMS obligation and are not integrated nor operate with regular Army units, and as such despite a national military service the Army is actually a fully professional career force.

  The Cartilla

  The drafted men attend and participate in weekend sessions that really are a social service in nature, with emphasizes on education, history, physical fitness, and military discipline for one complete year. Afterward, the precartilla (pre-military identity card) is returned to the conscript with an added page certifying his status as having fulfilled his national military service and identifies the military branch, the unit, rank, etc. The document then acquires full status as the Cartilla del Servicio Militar Nacional (Military National Service Identity Card), informally Cartilla; this status is recorded to the National Defense Secretariat files.

  This document (Military National Service Identity Card) is an important form of Mexican national identification, and its existence was formerly always requested by private and public employers, however, this identity document has ceased being required for obtaining apassport for international travel.

  The other reference given is from War Resistors International

  postponement and exemption

  Postponement is possible for students, those living abroad, those serving a prison-sentence in the year they turn 18, and those who have to support a family. Postponement is usually allowed for five year periods. [1]

  Exemption is possible for medical reasons, for those living abroad and for those living more than 20 kilometers from the training centre boundaries. [1]

  recruitment

  Call-up for medical examination and registration at the nearest registration centre takes place at the age of 17. Selection of conscripts is by ballot. People picking a white ball get directed to training centres and must undergo military training; people picking a black ball are not enlisted. According to the Mexican government: "Those who obtain a black ball in the draw shall fulfil their military service through availability, without having to present themselves physically for service."

  2 Conscientious objection

  The right to conscientious objection is not legally recognized.

  The Mexican government stated in 1994: "Mexican legislation does not recognize the concept of conscientious objection to military service. For those who are required to perform national military service as one of their obligations as Mexican citizens, it considers that the collective interest in defending the nation must prevail over the private interests of individuals." [2]

  ---

  This doesn't answer how the policies were during the 1960s and 1970s. So:

  1.How common are these training centers for the 20km to be a valid excuse? I would assume they would be common enough to use 20km radious but maybe someone can enlighten us on this.

  2. Would a JW go and pick a ballot? It looks like gambling to me. 50/50 chance of "winning". Would he say, sorry I can't do this because I might pick a white ball? Black ball, service through availability doesn't really go into details from that site.

  So the 3rd witness tries to downplay the facts and apolagists go onto imply that we say that all Mexiacan male Jws got their cards during JW years. Just because JWs are known for janitorial work and window washing doesn't make all such. So far, the facts show that Mexicans were allowed to wheasel themselves out of service which Malawi's had to suffer the consequences. Bribe is a bribe doesn't matte rhow much you downplay it. Would Jehovah accept a bribe if Armageddon comes can I squeeze couple dollars in his coffers and get by especially if I live in Mexico?
• 

  Knowsnothing

  I'm not quite sure I understood right, but it does seem someone got the date wrong for the last letter.

  Sept 5, 1969: WT answers and refers to wrong letter dated Feb 4, 1960. The branch really quoted the June 2, 1960 letter.

  I just took a look at the book now. Go to pg. 158.

  The Sept. 5, 1969 letter indeed states that Feb. 4, 1960 is the "Society's stance on the Cartilla" letter, whereas Feb. 4, 1960 is the Mexican Branch's first correspondence with Bethel.

  I don't think it is impossible for Bethel to get something dated wrong, no? Even with all the spell checking, etc. they must do to send something out, in the end they are human, not to mention that type of technology didn't exist then. It was all done manually.

  Also, thanks Cedars and Diamondiz for your contributions and comments.

  Diamond, you noted something that needs to be mentioned again.

  This document (Military National Service Identity Card) is an important form of Mexican national identification, and its existence was formerly always requested by private and public employers, however, this identity document has ceased being required for obtaining apassport for international travel.

  In the '70s, as CoC mentions, it indeed was compulsory to have the cartilla to obtain a passport. So, it was a pretty important little document, eh?

  I also would like to mention some food for thought CoC provides us. Pg. 147

  Which leads to the second reason for my questioning. I can
  understand why a person could conscientiously desire to be
  separate from the political strife and fierce competition that generally
  characterize party politics. The factors that made me think
  seriously about the situation in Malawi, however, was that it was
  and remained until recent times, a one-party state. The Malawi
  Congress Party was the country’s ruling party with no other parties
  allowed. It thus became, in a de facto sense, equivalent to the
  government itself, the “superior authority.” If a person could be a
  citizen, and hence a member of the national political community,
  without violating integrity to God, where was the evidence to show
  that being submissive to the government’s insistence (expressed from
  the head of state on down) that everyone purchase a card of the
  ruling party would constitute such a violation of integrity to God?
  I wondered then, and I still wonder, how major is the difference?

  That's what I wonder, too. How would the Malawi witnesses have violated their Christian neutrality?

  Needless suffering could have been avoided if the Society didn't take such a rigid stance and let Witnesses decide for themselves, as opposed to having to fear the Society's dogmatic ruling and be forced to ask petty questions such as which sexual position in marriage is adequate, etc.

  The Malawi witnesses wrote to the branch for a reason; they too were looking for a way out of the mayhem, yet all the Society did was shoot them down with a letter.
• 

  Knowsnothing

  Bump.

  Ultimately, while I do not believe Ray Franz would lie, he was human. Can we trust his account on Mexico?

  Has anyone ever confirmed this outside of Franz, with say a Mexican witness?
• 

  cedars

  Knowsnothing - I think what you're waiting for is a 60-year-old Mexican with no partiality on either side of the debate brandishing a signed and stamped Cartilla card with a written statement that he bribed an official for it. You're unlikely to get that on this particular forum. For me personally, actual photocopies of the branch correspondence produced by a confirmed former member of the Governing Body is verification enough. The fact that the Society has never published a statement refuting his allegations is, in itself, telling. Moreover, I just think that it's way too elaborate to make this stuff up! Ray Franz could never have written a book with such a loving, genuine, appealing, non-bitter tone as that on show in Crisis of Conscience if he was the scheming type who faked branch correspondence and conjured up scenarios involving bribery and corruption in one country being permitted whilst rape and violence was being endured under similar issues of "neutrality" in another. Maybe I'm just naive.

  Cedars
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  Cadellin

  While I think Franz is pretty scrupulous in CoC, and I have no valid reason to doubt him, I have wondered the same as Knowsnothing--are there any Mexican witnesses or ex-witnesses that know first hand about the cartilla thing? What's the current status, as well?
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  Bucholz

  All right, I used to be a 4th Generation Mexican Witness. The policy regarding military service changed recently, around 2004. Now there is a provision for "conscientious objection". Also, the law was modified that same year so that the 'cartilla' is no longer necessary to obtain a passport or other such important documents as it was in the past.

  Fortunately I was 17 years old at the time, so I didn't have to go through the process of bribing somebody to get it (obviously I have since left the Jw's). I wanted to add that not all JW Mexican males bribed an official, though it was acceptable. My father for example, back in the early 80's gave a fake address so that if he got the 'black ball', he wouldn't have to do any military service. Many did the same, if they got the 'black ball' sometimes they would just forget about it.

  All that said, the 'cartilla' is now irrelevant here and it's only needed if you want to work in any law-enforcement agency.