TRY AGAIN - QUESTION: HOW HAVE FRANZ'S BOOKS HELPED YOU?

by binadub 22 Replies latest jw friends

MrMonroe

1) How have Franz's books influenced (or not) you? Also Carl Olof Jonsson's and Jim Penton's?
Franz's books influenced me greatly. My wife and I stopped going to meetings after reading COC. Franz's second book, as well as Penton's and others, confirmed that my decision was the right one.
2) Do you understand Jonsson's chronology arguments and their effect on the parousia doctrine?
Vaguely, but I'm not interested in exploring the subject deeply. I know enough of the WTS lies to know that proving them wrong on 607 is immaterial.
3) Would you like an alternative religion to the Watchtower organization? If so, what do you think it should offer?
No. I still believe in God but want no religion. That one was more than enough.
4) Are you familiar with Channel C.
Never heard of it.
5) What do you think is the most influencial medium for JWs leaving the religion? Forums like this? Books? Other exJWs?
Probably the internet.
6) Do you know who the current WT leaders are?
I read their names occasionally on JWN, but I don't care enough to memorise them.
ziddina

I'll just answer your first question as the rest of the questions don't quite apply to my situation....
Ray Franz' book, "Crisis of Conscience", helped me in so many ways, although I had left the cult approximately 24 - 25 years earlier, on my own, with no "support" system available.
Ray Franz' book clarified many things that had puzzled and dismayed me when I was a child being beaten and bullied into the religion.
One outstanding item was the horrific discrepancy between the nightmare that the Malawiian Witnesse were going through, and the way in which the Mexican brothers were 'coasting under the radar' by committing the immoral and illegal acts of bribing the Mexican officials - with the Watchtower Society's full knowledge AND APPROVAL!!!
Add to that, the fact that the Watchtower Corporation wasn't even functioning as a RELIGION in Mexico; no, they were there under the dishonest facade of being a "cultural" association...
Now, I was a VERY IMPRESSIONABLE young pre-teen girl when the "Malawi" situation exploded in the pages of the Watchtower and Awake magazines...
I clearly remember the tone of the articles - how the Society almost seemed to drool and slobber over the accounts of horrific gang-rapes of some of the Malawiian sisters; how the Society wailed and tore at its collective robes over the "Persecution ™ " that the brothers and isters were suffering from.
They ballyhooed that "persecution" for all it was worth... I recall the Watchtower Society implying that the suffering of the Malawiian brothers and sisters was a preview of what would be happening to ALL OF US as the "Great Tribulation ™ " set in, too... [This was all pre-1975...]
WONderful mental images for a 12-year-old girl to have in her head...
I even remember writing a version of that letter that they printed in the magazine, and sending it off to the Malawiian president, like a good little JW robot....
So when I found out the REAL story behind the "story", I was absolutely livid with fury!! But it also confirmed some of the suspicions I had had about the situation, at the time.
The U.N. situation was another one that had me shaking my head, when I learned about it... But after the inside story on the Malawiian situation, I had stopped being surprised by the Watchtower Society's absolutely mind-boggling hypocrisy...
As I said before, I was "out" for a VERY long time, before I read "Crisis of Conscience", but I cannot describe the "Ah - HAH!!!" feeling I had, as I read of the filthy hypocrisy and evil lying at the heart of the Watchtower Corporation.
I had sensed it, suffered from it, but never had been able to NAME it - until I read that book...
Zid
Violia

1) How have Franz's books influenced (or not) you? Also Carl Olof Jonsson's and Jim Penton's?
Franz book did little for me initially. I found his book a bit detailed .I have never been great with math and or Bible history etc, the Bible prophecies bore me to tears and I knew 1975 was a dud long before it failed to do anything. It was some time later that other parts of his book resonated with me. The Malawi /Mexico, the oral sex debacle that destroyed a lot of marriages in the 70, esp. I liked reading about Bethel and the inner workings, and I was glad to see someone also noticed Jesus was not our mediator anymore . I did not read his book until years after I stopped attending meetings and service. I would have been too afraid to read his book in the 80's.
I also read Carl olof Jonsson's and Pentons' books years after I stopped attending. they just confirmed what I knew from being a jws all my life.
2) Do you understand Jonsson's chronology arguments and their effect on the parousia doctrine?
I could never understand 1914 as a jws, I just had trouble explaining it. but yes, I finally understood why this date was the cornerstone of the jws doctrine and without it it is like a house of cards that comes tumbling down.
3) Would you like an alternative religion to the Watchtower organization? If so, what do you think it should offer?
if they changed into a religion that did charity work and stopped selling mags and changed a bunch of their doctrines, maybe but they won't. There are other religions that offer this.
..
4) Are you familiar with Channel C.
yes
5) What do you think is the most influential medium for JWs leaving the religion? Forums like this? Books? Other exJWs?
silent lambs was my help and it lead me to here. without silent lambs I would never have come to this forum as I would have been fearful of the openness of the forum. books are probably the first best way to help and then guide the questioning jws to a forum. So books/people first and then a forum.
6) Do you know who the current WT leaders are?
No, I have seen the pics but can't name anyone.
Ding

I already knew the WTS was wrong on many things before I read any of those books.
The Franz books confirmed a lot and also revealed a lot of inside information about the GB we couldn't have known otherwise. It's very good for JWs who are starting to doubt the WT, especially ones who have been thinking that the problem is with THEM.
The Jonsson book The Gentile Times Reconsidered presents an overwhelming amount of information, far more than you can effectively share with the average JW or study. It was originally prepared for the GB, after all, a group whom Jonsson originally believed to be deep Bible scholars. It's information overload. However, for the studious type who really wants to get to the bottom of WT chronology, it completely undercuts the WTS's\ whole 607 BCE date for the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon and with it the 1914 date that is so critical to the WTS' claims of divine authority. It was very influential on Ray Franz. He had to admit to himself that there was no way the WT's 1914 date was correct, and with that went the whole 1919 faithful and discreet slave appointment claimed by the WTS. It is also instructive to learn from Ray that instead of studying Jonsson's proof carefully and praying about what this Swedish elder (Jonsson) sent to them in good faith, the GB simply deep-sixed it and DFd the man in order to hush it all up... quite a blow to the theory that the GB are sincere Christians who really want to know the truth and promptly and humbly correct their errors.
jws

1) I was mostly inactive, but believing. I ordered COC, read it, and it opened my eyes. This was all man-made. I decided never to return.
2) When I read the books, I think I understood it. Couldn't quote all the arguments anymore. I knew even the Bible alone proved the JWs wrong for as much as you can believe it in the first place. But if you live by it as truth, you've got to accept when it proves you wrong too.
3) Don't need religion.
4) Channel C? Are you here trying to promote something?
5) For me, the most influential force was books, but that was before the WWW. And whether online or in print, they still do good. Ray Franz gave me a view inside that I never knew about. Today, I like forums like this one. You can find many people knowledgeable on so many topics. You can also discover things about yourself and other JWs that you never spoke of as a JW. Lo and behold, I was not the only one that hated field service.
It's also both light-hearted and serious. Especially when possibly leaving behind friends and family, it's healthy to come to a place and make new relationships. And with people who are experiencing the same things. You can vent and people will empathize and help you through it. You may have never met, but you have commonality nonetheless.
The thing with forums like this one, however, is that the people on it have gone in about every direction imaginable when it comes to faith. Trinitarian members will argue with single-god members. Athiests with religious people. And on and on. If you're here looking for which direction to go next, this is not going to point you in a direction. But the different points of view will open your mind.
6) I do not know who the current leaders are. When I was a JW, I didn't know who they were. I learned from COC and forums like this one. I know of the change of responsibilities in the GB a few years back and that new, younger members were being added. But I don't really pay attention. Don't really care, but it is interesting to watch how new blood is changing policies. Didn't that ever raise questions with JWs? Why does new human leadership lead to changes in the org? If they're only God's channel, shouldn't things stay the same from administration to administration?
Rydor

1) They've been huge. Learning about the WT's dirty laundry isn't what ultimately got me out, but it was still very eye opening.
2) Yes, although I don't believe it's accurate to say Jonsson's "chronology arguments" undermine the Watchtowers 1914 teaching. ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE does that. I can't emphasize enough the point that the Watchtower cannot produce a single scrap of archaeological evidence to support their timeline. They can only attempt to weaken the arguments of the opposition. Note that when I say "opposition" I mean, quite literally, every single scholar on this earth who has knowledge of the neo-Babylonian period.
3) Huh? What a weird question. When it comes to religious matters, your starting point shouldn't be "What is my personal preference?" It should be, "What is true and factual?" In my case, no religion has presented anything that I consider worthy of adding to my belief system.
4) No
5) The internet. Mainly because it's so convenient and easy to look up stuff from the privacy of your home. Although the desire must be there. They must already be doubting or questioning something. Then sites like jwfacts, etc. can help them put the pieces together.
6) Um... Gerrit Losch, Sam Herd, Guy Pierce, Stephen Lett, Geoffrey Jackson, Anthony Morris, there's probably 1 or 2 others, but I cannot remember. Oh wait, was I supposed to say "the remaining members of the anointed currently on the earth?"
binadub

Thanks for the replies, people.
What I'm trying to survey is what appears to be a cultural difference between JWs who left during the 1980s and before, during the 90s when the Internet mushroomed with WT expose', and since 2000. It's basically just a curiosity.
It appears that most of the people who left during the 1980s and early 1990s are the ones who were most influenced by the books.
Many were drawn to the BRCI support conferences and were more likely to have retained a Christian perspective. Many of them met Franz personally.
Folks to left after the mid-90s are less likely to have been influenced by the books and are more likely to have left due to Internet influence, particularly the H2O forum, although it is fairly divided because many or most JWs/exJWs were not Internet active yet. There was a definite camaradre among exJWs who were active on the Internet--like a little international support community, regardless of religious perspective.
Many if not most people coming out since 2000 seem even less likely to have been influenced by the books, if they have even heard of them. In general, they seem more likely to be younger JWs, more influenced by secular academics and peer influence, and more likely to become religious skeptics.
Does this seem like a fair assessment, in general (with exceptions of course)?
My last question would be:
Have these books or the men who wrote them influenced your religious perspective since leaving the WT religion?
~Binadub
jws

Have these books or the men who wrote them influenced your religious perspective since leaving the WT religion?
Carl Olaf Johnson, no. I read his books, but beyond that, what is there? He disproved the Watchtower, and quite well, but what else is there to do? Go following him like some cult? He was not proposing an alternative. I'm sure he's probably written more here and there, but what more do I need to know the Watchtower is wrong?
Franz might be a little different than Johnson. Whereas Johnson's treatises were to argue against a specific viewpoint, Franz always had more of a focus on God. I respected him and I still respect him for his courage. But truth be told, it'd be hard to convince me of any divine wisdom in the Bible anymore.
I started to read Franz's second book, but it got deep fast and it was really thick. I decided I wasn't that interested in digging through it all.
DesirousOfChange

I ordered COC, read it, and it opened my eyes.
Fernando

1) How have Franz's books influenced (or not) you? Also Carl Olof Jonsson's and Jim Penton's?
Not influenced by Franz's books, but well written and sound scriptural reasoning. Had come to similar conclusions "independently". Benefited from Watchtower article condemning "legalism" which was probably written by Franz (g79 6/8 pp. 27-28 Why the Emphasis on Christian Freedom?). Not read other named books.
2) Do you understand Jonsson's chronology arguments and their effect on the parousia doctrine?
No. WBT$ surreptitiously hates the unabridged "good news" (according to Paul, Moses, Isaiah, Psalms and others) and that's quite big enough for me.
3) Would you like an alternative religion to the Watchtower organization? If so, what do you think it should offer?
No. All religion is a snare and a racket exactly as rogue Judge JF Rutherford described. The full unabridged "good news" is God's full, final and ultimate answer for all dysfunction in particular religion. Society and freedom/liberty advanced dramatically in 1517 when religion lost a lot of its power. When religion finally loses all its power and is supplanted by the unabridged "good news" instead society will move to the next level of progress.
4) Are you familiar with Channel C.
No, but had a quick look. The user interface is not nearly as friendly and accessible as this site. A lot of good info probably buried and seldom read.
5) What do you think is the most influencial medium for JWs leaving the religion? Forums like this? Books? Other exJWs?
For those with high levels of addiction (to this religion), misplaced loyalty, and "Spiritual Stockholm Syndrome" as in my case, only the unabridged "good news" is powerful enough to lead to a spiritual awakening and freedom.
6) Do you know who the current WT leaders are?
No. But carbon copies of Pharisees and Sanhedrin - by their fruits and followers. Supremacist, self-righteous, vindictive and venomous. Spiritually naked, blind, confused, inebriated and insane with voracious appetites for spiritual unfaithfulness, fornication, adultery (aka apostasy or heresy) - scandalous, non-stop and brazen naked intimacy with demons and the "god of religion" (Satan).

TRY AGAIN - QUESTION: HOW HAVE FRANZ'S BOOKS HELPED YOU?

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