LeavingWT: Why Never Discuss Doctrine?

InterestedOne

Among the various helpful pieces of advice I have read here from leavingwt, I have noticed that he often tells people to never discuss doctrine with a JW. I realize that discussing doctrine with a JW can be very frustrating, but I was wondering if there is a more far-reaching and less-obvious reason for this advice. Like is it related to some peculiar aspect of the JW mind that the average person would not be aware of?

For example, I know there are various JW booby traps like when the elders supposedly want to "talk," but leavingwt and others have accurately warned people not to take the bait b/c it could mean getting cut off. In my case, I learned the hard way that I probably should not have even done the JW bible study because now, in my JW acquaintance's mind, I should "know better" and I am almost like "bad association" or something like that.

I'm just wondering if someone could articulate the reasons why discussing doctrine with a JW is a mistake beyond the fact that it is frustrating.

Black Sheep

They don't believe doctrines for scriptural reasons. They believe them because Jehovah is using the WT to provide their spiritual food.

For example, I watched a Lutheran trash my father on the immortal soul. My father's final responce was, "These people are Bible scholars!". Decades later, he still thinks that he won the debate. His idea of a 'win' must be something like, 'Satan didn't make me lose faith in Jehovah, therefore, I won!'

Morbidzbaby

By discussing their doctrine, you basically are opening yourself up to be labeled as an apostate right off the bat. The Society and it's writings are NOT to be questioned nor discussed in any manner other than agreement. It makes them uncomfortable and automatically their defenses go up and their mind shuts down.

Example: I attempted to explain to my mother why 1914 means nothing. Why the 607 date is false. Why the org couldn't have been chosen. This was a clear mistake. Why? Because her brain screamed "NO NO NO!!!" and she got SCARED of me. I was going against her beloved organization in my speech, and thus, against Jehovah himself. She accused me of trying to "tear her away from her god". She accused me of reading apostate things on "that internet!!" and said that because I no longer go to meetings, I don't see things clearly. She even looked up a part in the Revelation book about needing the organization in order to have Holy Spirit to understand the "deep things" of the Bible.

But the UN scandal?? She wanted to see PROOF of that! I showed her. I printed out the UN's own words and showed her. She said "Well, that's the Wild Beast of Revelation! Of COURSE they would lie about Jehovah's organization!!". BUT she didn't accuse me of apostasy and she was willing to listen and see evidence that I provided.

When I discussed scandals and things that were going on, she was all ears and wanted proof. When I discussed DOCTRINE, she accused me of being a tool of Satan and kicked me out of her room saying "I can't talk to you... I can't even LOOK at you right now!".

So...yeah...that's my experience with discussing doctrine.

steve2

Hi interestedOne. JWs are not unique. In my life, whenever I sense that the other party - JW or nonJW - is not really that interested in my views and simply seeks opportunities to promote their well-aired views, I try to avoid feed the frustrating cycle.

My philosophy is that we are all free to believe what we will and I feel no "duty" to correct people's views - I'm trying to shed the JW tendency to try to persuade others about what is and is not "true".

It is very freeing to unhook myself from others beliefs - JWs or others. Of course, if anyone appears genuinely interested in exchanging views and shows an ability to acknowledge my point of view, I'll happily talk with them. Otherwise, I'd rather stop and smell the roses, thank you!

leavingwt

Interested One: Great question!

You can discuss doctrine with a person who is free to think for himself. However, if you're having a dialogue with a person under the influence of Thought Reform, a person who views everything in life as being Black and White, discussing doctrine is usually pointless. Moreover, discussing doctrine with a loyal JW will (usually) trigger his cult personality. Once the cult personality has been triggered, the JW will defend things that they don't even believe in their hearts. (In other words, they will publicly defend things that, in private, they may feel differently about.)

Discussing doctrine comes AFTER you've built trust and rapport with the person. Discussing doctrine comes after the person has reached the point at which he has decided that, in fact, he could be wrong about his strongly-held beliefs.

So, if you're speaking with the authentic personality (in contrast with the defensive cult personality) and the person has admitted that perhaps WT is not God's Organization, THEN by all means discuss doctrine, perhaps pointing out some "issues" that were unsettling to you. Discuss doctrine by asking questions for which the WT literature does not provide an automatic answer to.

But, to think that one is going to visit the home of a Mormon, pull out a King James Bible or the Koran, and then proceed to convince the Mormon that his religion (and indeed his entire worldview) is incorrect, is a set one's self up for a huge disappointment.

We must also be honest about what we're up against: Those who enjoy being members of high-control groups are not going to leave. This give us two choices: find their sore spot with the Watchtower life or create a sore spot. Once the sore spot has been identified, it provides an entry point for doubt, and more importantly, Critical Thinking.

With JWs, in particular, they've been slowly indoctrinated and constantly reminded that they cannot trust (1) their own thinking ability and (2) their hearts. Stop and ponder how dangerous such a state of mind really is. What is the end result? An army of robots, many quite intelligent, waiting for the next command. Further, the WT environment constantly prepares them to outside influences, such as apostates. They are warned that the Devil (which is anything outside WT) is trying to mislead and destroy them.

00DAD

Because cults train their members to use "Thought Stopping" techniques when you try to debate doctrine. According to Steven Hassan, "Thought stopping is used by the cult identity to block out any idea, statement or piece of information that challenges the group's doctrine or leadership." This is why it will rarely, if ever work. Ironically, the more "In" a cult member is, the more futile any attempts to say, reason on the scriptures will be. (Releasing the Bonds, p. 184)

Hassan in his books therefore recommends a different approach that tries to appeal to a persons AUTHENTIC IDENTITY. This is either who the person was before they joined the cult or, in the case of born-ins, who they would likely be if they'd been raised outside of the cult.

Also it is important for JWs to see happy, well-adjusted former members because, as we know, the WT inculcates a phobia implying that anyone that leaves is weak, sinful, corrupted, mentally-diseased and miserable.

Living well is the best revenge! - George Herbert, English clergyman & metaphysical poet (1593 - 1633)

leavingwt

InterestedOne: Steve Hassan has personally assisted more than one thousand people to exit a wide variety of high-control groups. His books draw upon what he's observed, often first-hand. If haven't read them, you may find them to be interesting.

bob1999

Because they care nothing about doctrine.

If they did they would not be JW's. The WTS has change important doctrines over and over again but it doesn't seem bother the JW.

To a JW, God is guiding and using the WTS as His only mouthpiece on earth. The light gets brighter. Wait on God.

It doesn't matter if what we are teaching today is wrong, God will correct it in time. Stay in union with the FDS or you will be lost.

It's not correct doctrine that saves but association with the FDS.

They have no understanding of grace, faith or freedom in Christ. It a crying shame. :-(

Peace

leavingwt

"It doesn't matter if what we are teaching today is wrong, God will correct it in time. Stay in union with the FDS or you will be lost."

Exactly. Suppose you convince a JW that a specific point of WT theology is incorrect. Well, "where else would they go"?

InterestedOne

LeavingWT: I read Hassan's first book, but I haven't ordered the second. I found the first one to be enlightening especially on two key points: 1. Phobia indoctrination, and 2. Checking if a member is able to name the three things they like least about their organization. I think #2 is related to your first sentence which was:

You can discuss doctrine with a person who is free to think for himself.

I agree. If you and I are free thinkers, we can discuss doctrine, philosophy, theory vs. practice, etc. all day, but if one of us is under pressure to avoid saying anything negative about a particular ideology, our communication is handicapped.

Although it might seem that I already know some of the basics about this cult stuff, I am finding it helpful to unpack the phrase "never discuss doctrine." I was also wondering, apart from the cognitive dissonance problem, if there is any sort of written or unwritten rule in JW culture that relates to doctrinal discussions with a non-JW such as myself and their impact on the relationship between the non-JW and the JW - kind of like when a JW shares his/her doubts with fellow JW's, it starts him/her down a road to being shunned.

LeavingWT: Why Never Discuss Doctrine?

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