Good job, Doug! Thank you (and you too, Leolaia) for the article.
Analysis of the Book of Daniel
by Londo111 18 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Augustin
Leolaia,
Could I get a copy of the article (mentinoed by GLTirebiter)?
Thanks!
A.
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GLTirebiter
Augustin,
It's the same article Doug Mason links to. Doug credits Leolaia in the prologue for her contributions to it. That's why I included her in the "Thank you".
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Larsinger58
The VAT4956 was created during the Seleucid Period when an interest in astronomical texts from the time of Nebuchadnezzar showed the Persians had added 82 fake years to their time and these texts, contradicting those extra years, had to be destroyed or revised. To preserve at least some secret references to the original timeline, diaries were created like the VAT4956 and the SK400 which matched similarities between the revised and original timeline, creating a perfect place to "hide in plain sight" the true chronology. The secret references to the original timeline would show up as minor "errors" for the new dating. Thus in Lines 3 and 14 of the VAT4956 we have noted "errors" of 1 day for lunar positions. But using the Bible to establish the 1st of Cyrus in 455 BCE and the last deportation 70 years earlier in 525 BCE, we know that year 37 of Neb2 actually occurs in 511 BCE. What is wonderful is that the two "errors" in the VAT4956 match 511 BCE, confirming the original timeline.
So unless you correct the Persian timeline first, by dating the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE, you are simply talking nonsense in respect to REALITY and only being fooled by the manipulators of ancient history and chronology. So if you think Jerusalem fell in 607 BCE or in 587 BCE, it's just a JOKE.
Having noted that, you have a series of 70th weeks that is fulfilled by the messiah at both the first and second coming. So even without worrying about the complexities of the NB timeline and revisionism, once the 70th week of the 1st coming was established from 29-36 CE, it automatically confirms the 70th week of the second coming in our time. 70 weeks is 490 years. So you just calculate consecutive 70-week periods of 490 years from 36 CE down to our day and you'll know the 70th week of the 2nd coming. Let's try that, shall we?
4 x 490 = 1960
1960 + 36 CE = 1996 CE
Thus a critical 70th-week period occurs during our time from 1989-1996. The messiah fulfills the 70th week by arriving at the beginning of the 70th week for the first coming and then at the 2nd coming arriving in the middle of the week. Thus the activity of Christ is shared during the 70th week, split between the first and second coming. Since we know the 70th week ends in 1996, it begins in 1989. If the messiah is to show up within a year of the mid-70th passover on April 6, 1993, then the mid-week arrival of Christ is prophesied to take place in 1992-1993. If so, then Jerusalem's fall would necessarily occur in 529 BCE. At this point, we ask if there is any confirmation of a 529 BCE fall of Jerusalem. As noted above, the VAT4956 confirms that 511 BCE is the true date for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar II and thus year 19 falls in none other than 529 BCE!!
Now how much of a "coincidence" do you think this really is? Both the Bible based on 29 CE baptism of Christ dating the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE dates year 19 of NebII to 529 BCE, and we have at least two exant astronomical texts referencing the true dates for Nebuchadnezzar II that just happen to have a cryptic reference to 511 BCE for year 37 (VAT4956) and 541 BCE for year 7 (SK400). If you don't accept that interpretation of the texts, that's fine, but no one can say there is no evidence of this timeline in the secular records. Plus you have Josephus, a Jew, who assigns the 70 years of "servitude" mentioned by Jeremiah to those last deported off the land in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. I haven't seen any of our resident "scholarly experts" even addressing this. Because they can't and won't. Josephus says there is a 70-year period from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus in fulfillment of Jeremiah's 70 years. So you have a conflict between two secular sources: Josephus and the NB records which were know were not originals but "copies" from the time of Darius II!
So at this point, we have to ask if those looking at this are really behing HONEST? But even if you are confused about this, dating the 2nd coming by Daniel is not done only by the "7 times" prophecy, but by the "70 weeks" prophecy where the messiah arrives twice to fulfill the 70th week; the first time from 29-36 and the second coming from 1989-1996. Funny to me, if you use the VAT4956 "errors" to date year 37 of NebII to 511 BCE and thus year 19 to 529 BCE and you apply the "7 times" formula of 2520 years down to the 2nd coming, you arrive at 1992/1993, which just happens to be the mid-week year of the 70TH WEEK!
Plus DANIEL also gives us another cross-check prophecy for the year of the second coming. Remember the Bible Students and their focus on 1874 for the second coming? That was in fulfillment of the "1335 days." This prophecy dates the 2nd coming 45 years after the tribulation is over which ends 1290 days. The actual tribulation was "cut short" and thus the HOLOCAUST ended in 1945. But the 7-year tribulation period based on the 70 weeks from 1506 to 1996 where the "cut off" begins the 7-year period after 62 weeks and thus 434 years after 1506, ends in 1947. That is, 62 weeks = 434 years. Counting from 36 CE, you have a 70-week period of 490 years from 1506 to 1996. Add 434 years to 1506 and you get 1940. Thus the 7-year period of desolation which was "cut short" would be from 1940-1947, which ends the 1290 days. That is, the "end of the gentile times" and the end of Jewish exile ended on November 30, 1947. The 1290 days ends the gentile times in 1947. Thus the second coming fulfills the 1335 days 45 years later. Add 45 to 1947 and guess what? You end up with 1992! The same as when you use the VAT4956 to date year 37 of NebII to 511 BCE or the Bible.
So Daniel is amazing, giving us three year-specific prophecies for the date of the second coming and they all fall in 1992. You have to date the second coming to 1992 regardless based on the "70 week s"prpohecy and the "1335 days" prophecy. These two prophecies are based on post-revision historical events; Jesus' baptism in 29 CE and the end of the gentile times in 1947. Both point to 1992 as the date of the second coming. This requires us to retroactively date the fall of Jerusalem to 529 BCE, whether we want to or not. The trick is coordinating that with Bible chronology and any secular chronology. Fortunately, the VAT4956 confirms the original dating for year 37 to 511 BCE which in turn dates year 19 to 529 BCE. This is not a coincidence, this is simple reality. When you have the truth, everything works out perfectly. Daniel's prophecies work when you trust the Bible, do your research and have the correct interpretation of these prophecies.
LS
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Larsinger58
Another thing is this: The book of Daniel clearly says the understanding of these prophecies would be sealed up until the last days. So if these are truly the last days, we should be able to understand these prophecies, right? Partially right. Those with "insight" are the ones who will be granted understanding of these prophecies, meaning the elect. Others will not be granted to understand these prophecies, even though some aspects are quite straightforward. For instance, many, including JWs clearly understand the "70 weeks" prophecy based on 29 CE baptism of Christ means that it must begin in 455 BCE. Agreed! That's rather straightforward.
But then there is some confusion. The Bible speaks of wars and desolation occurring against the Jews and that simply doesn't happen prior to Christ's arrival in 29 CE. Some presume the desolation must be linked to the fall of Jerusalem and so figure there must be a "gap" in the timeline between the time of Jesus' death and the destruction of Jerusalem. What they don't realize is that this complex prophecy covers both the first and second coming and that the "great tribulation" and desolation is a one-time event that happens just before the second coming. Did that great tribulation occur just before the Jews were restored to their homeland? An event in human history that never happened before nor would happen again? Of course. Weren't the JEWS the target of the HOLOCAUST? Isn't the Holocaust and Hitler considered the worst events in human history so far? How could such a significant event focussed on the chosen people of God, the Jews, not get mentioned as part of the signs of the time of the end? Well, it IS mentioned. It is called the "great tribulation"! But after this tribulation, God's anger would be rested and he would then bless the Jews and accept them again. Isn't the State of israel a major principality in the world now? America calls Israel it's best friend, though we all know England likely is. Even so, the State of israel is a very important entity in the world and the Bible had always promised that the Jews, or at least a remnant of the Jews, would be restored to their homeland. Point being, the tribulation coming after 62 weeks is fulfilled during the 2nd coming, not the first. There are parallels fulfilled by both, of course, but the great tribulation, a one-time event, is an event beloning to the "last days" and the last generation of 1914-1994.
All this goes to show how the WTS, now apostate, are in total spiritual darkness. Those with "insight" meaning the faithful elect have the correct fulfillment along with the correct chronology. So we are very happy and glad to share our knowledge with the world. But, of coruse, Satan's world is not listening because they love the darkness. Nothing we of the elect can do about that. But we're giddy that the Bible is true and that Daniel's prophecies have been fulfilled!
LS
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Vidqun
Doug, your research is impressive, but perhaps you want to widen your conclusions to include most of Christianity. The views you, as well as modern scholars and critics, are attacking do not only belong to the Watchtower. A great percentage of Christians reason along those same lines. In connection with Daniel, E. B. Pusey wrote: “The book of Daniel is especially fitted to be a battle-ground between faith and unbelief. It admits of no half-way measures. It is either Divine or an imposture…. The writer, were he not Daniel, must have lied on a frightful scale” (E. B. Pusey, Daniel the Prophet (Oxford: Parker, 1865). For those that do believe that Daniel is a fraud, Why study his book at all?
Like Lars, I do believe in the relevance of Daniel for our day, even if our views might differ. After having read Daniel through, I was convinced of the humility and sincerity of the writer, to such an extent that I take his book seriously. So, to keep the discussion positive, here’s a few pointers that helped me in my studies. Feel free to comment.
1) One should allow the Bible (HAS: especially the MT and versions) usually a reliable witness, the benefit of the doubt. E.g., over the years it has been proved that the Bible is much more dependable than historical works or secular sources. Every archaeologist worth his salt, working in the Middle East, would include the Bible amongst his references.
2) One should establish the meaning and duration of two temporal phrases, “the latter (part of the) days” and “[the] end time”. The former is found in most of the prophetic books. The latter is found only in the book of Daniel.
3) One should endeavor to stick to the well-known maxim: If the jacket does not fit, do not wear it. Look for a jacket with an exact fit. E.g., most scholars agree that these verses cannot be applied to the Seleucid dynasty, especially vv. 40 – 45. In Antiochus’ day Moab no longer existed. Antiochus made no African invasions beyond Egypt and he died at Tabae, Persia. An urgent reappraisement of the evidence is therefore called for.
4) As a Christian, one should view Daniel’s prophecies within a christological framework, i.e., how these relate to the Christ. Jesus is the second most important personage in the universe, and many a Biblical prophecy point to him as Leader and God’s appointed Messiah.
5) Last, but not least, one should carefully examine the context of the verses. E.g., most scholars seem to ignore Daniel’s worldview (German translation: Weltanschauung). Daniel was intensely occupied with the outworking of God’s purpose in relation to the military and political activities of mankind. It should also be possible then to integrate these prophecies with other Biblical prophecies.
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Vidqun
In his Commentary on Daniel in the Hermeneia-series, Collins uses the word ex-eventu regularly, meaning that the writing under discussion is the writer’s reaction to a certain happening. However, Daniel’s writings concentrate on the future, not the past. This one sees in the arrangement of the contents. One quarter describes happenings in the life of Daniel and his friends. Three quarters contain prophecy.
This can also be determined from the book itself. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar: “However, there exists a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets, and he has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what is to occur in the final part [’acharith] of the days” [“the latter days”, KJV] (Dan. 2:28).
Later the angel Gabriel would inform Daniel: “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of [the] end” [“the end time”, NAB] (Dan. 8:17b). He continued: “Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part [’acharith] of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end” (cf. Dan. 8:19; 11:36). The small horn or fierce king will rise “in the final part [’acharith] of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to completion” (cf. Dan. 8:23). Gabriel concluded: “And you, for your part, keep secret the vision, because it is for many days” [“it concerns the distant future”, NIV] (cf. Dan. 8:26b).
Concerning the final vision, the angel revealed: “And I have come to cause you to discern what will befall your people in the final part [’acharith] of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days [to come]” [“for the vision pertains to future days”, NET] (cf. Dan. 10:14). [Cursive script added.]
A definition of prophecy is “history written in advance”. As a secretary Daniel would dutifully record the contents of the book named after him. The one that dictated it could only be Jehovah God, via the angels. How so? Because only God can accurately predict the future.
To ascertain its truthfulness, one should examine the evidence carefully and systematically. Again the angel Gabriel would elaborate: “O Daniel, now I have come forth to make you have insight with understanding” (cf. Dan. 9:22). To fully comprehend the prophecy, one needs to pray for such “insight with understanding”.
As a template of history, Daniel’s prophecy should fit events exactly. Does it? As seen, his past prophecies have come true. What about those still ahead? Here one should keep in mind that the Sovereign of the Universe has put His seal of truth on the prophecy, thus confirming its faithfulness.
Concerning the first dream, Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar: “The grand God himself has made known to the king what is to occur after this. And the dream is reliable, and the interpretation of it is trustworthy” (cf. Dan. 2:45b). Later the angel would assure Daniel that the prophecy originates with God’s “book of truth” (cf. Dan. 10:1, 21 ESV).
As Lars mentioned, during the time of the end accurate knowledge will become abundant. But one will have to work hard to find it. Even then, not all will see it (cf. Dan. 12:4, 9, 10). Notwithstanding this, all of the above would be gibberish to a person who believes Daniel to be a fraudster and liar.
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Londo111
In respect to the quotation from Daniel the Prophet, I am not sure I am happy with this 19 th century author's argumentation. It seems to be the creation of a False Dilemma. It is EITHER completely historical and prophetic OR a complete fraud. Allowing for no alternatives goes back to the same dogmatism I was brought up on.
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Vidqun
As far as I can work out, the point he's making, is that you either believe in the authenticity and historicity of the book, or you believe that it's a fallacy (Quirky mentioned something about eating those mushrooms in the cow pasture). In my mind, the book of Daniel is unique. Granted, a lot of editorial activity has gone into the work, but usually one can work out the true (or logical) text by comparing the MT to the versions.
Modern scholars compare it to the Animal Apocalypse and Apocalypse of Weeks of 1 Enoch and 4 Ezra, and Apocalypse of Baruch, which is unfair. These books never made the grade, not being allowed in the Jewish or Christian canon. Another question is: Did they copy the book of Daniel or did the writer of Daniel copy them? Most scholars admit that Daniel is the oldest.
But I guess it comes down to the inspiration of the Scriptures. Were they "god breathed" or a product of a Jew's fertile imagination? That each one must decide for himself. Nevertheless, I do believe that scholarly criticism does not encourage faith or belief in prophecy. It does not allow for "the benefit of the doubt" either, which is a pity. According to the law a person is only proved guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt."
This is how a modern scholar puts it: "Conservatives [that's me amongst others] have argued that the critical position rests on dogmatic, rationalistic denial of the possibility of predictive prophecy. For the critical scholar, however, the issue is is one of probability." Another place he asserts: "The prophecies of Daniel [There is a problem with their nomenclature. He should say "the pseudo-prophecies of Pseudo-Daniel] can no longer serve as christological proofs; nor can the chronological schemata serve to structure universal history...." He insists: "Daniel is not a reliable source of factual information about either the past or the future," etc.
Here I have to disagree. E.g. the Hebrew term for "latter days" is 'acharith hayyamim (cf. Dan. 2:28). According to TDOT this prophetic term, today referred to as an "eschatological marker," means "the end of history as we know it." And that's something that I, and a lot of others, are hoping for. This fits in with the rest of the Bible, the theme being God's kingdom.