Could we be violating the rights of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES?

by Terry 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    The Const'n protects those who refuse to join any faith-based group. These articles would never pass muster in any other format than the Internet. Wikipedia always counsels against this type of writing. Weasal worded. I tend to be weasal worded b/c I don't want the responsibility to fall on me for determining something correctly. I need to be certain I don't use weasal expressions, such as "most groups."

    Before I finished school, though I was very impressed with the WT writing. The citations to secular sources made the WT more legitimate to me. I don't know you explain to people who aren't skeptics to beware of certain phrases and arguments. I am certain all the JWs are ooh and aahing over the site and the writing.

    The elders will shut him down. He should not be visiting apostate sites to give JWs reports. Most JWs prob. have never heard of Ray Franz. I recall my JW aunt breaking the news to my mom about Ray Franz. She teared up, tears streamed down her face, and she informed my mom that Freddie Franz' nephew was disfellowshipped. Freddie's heart was broken. Meanwhile, we had read the books at least a few years earlier. My mom and I had problem reading RF books b/c we only ordered one copy and could not coordinate our reading. If I offered to show my aunt the books, she would have passed out from the horror of the mere possibility. So someone read enough to form an opinion. The same with this site. Knowing Simon's name. It is none of his business. His only function is to be a puppet.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Most anticult organizations have not mentioned the contribution Jehovah’s Witnesses have made to religious freedom in their research.

    So the cult makes sure it has the freedom to be a cult, and anticult organizations just don't give them any credit for doing so? This came from the crybaby blog didn't it? Wah. They didn't give us credit for what we did!

    NC

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    If criticizing their beliefs is a violation of their human rights, why are they not being condemned for violating the rights of people of every other religion out there that they condemn on an ongoing basis?

    The article speaks of the "anti-cult movement" as if it was a single unified body, like the JWs are. I wonder who planted that idea? JWs themselves are the only ones I know of who think that everyone who leaves their group automatically joins the official apostate organization. Different counter-cult groups operate in different ways. As others have said, I would condemn the kidnapping and deprogramming model, but surely using persuasion is not violating anyone's rights? If it is, then every person who has a JW knock on his/her door is having his/her rights violated. I don't know of any counter-cult groups who go around knocking on doors to tell the people who live there that their religion is wrong.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    See, I love reports like this, dear Terry (peace to you!) because of how I think. Let me show you:

    The 1966 Civil Rights Covenant also authorizes the formation of the Human Rights Committee. That Committee issued General Comment 22 in 1993. General Comment 22 affirms that people have the right to profess or not profess a religion, to choose a religion or choose no religion at all and the right to choose theistic, non-theistic, or atheistic traditions.

    Without being called nasty, slanderous names like "apostate"?

    "General Comment 22 continues by stating that article 18bars coercion that would impair the right to have or adopta religion orbelief, including the use of threat of physical force or penal sanctions to compelbelievers or non-believers to adhere to their religious beliefs and congregations, to recant their religion or belief or to convert.”

    "Coercion" (use of force or intimidation to gain complaince) through use of "penal sanctions to compel"... such as slander, the loss of familial ties, even loss of consortium... all brought through [judicial] meetings that result in "penalties", including expulsion and ostracism... as well as more slander?

    The concern that human rights advocates have is concerning deprogramming, exit counseling, cult interventions, and other similar therapies. Thesetherapies aim at getting the “cultist” to recant his or her beliefs through confrontational and deceptive means.

    Two things catch my eye here: (1) that the WTBTS is being held out here... yet, they DENY they are "cultists" (so, how can it apply to support them?), and (2) these are the very tactics used by the "CULTISTS"... as to those who don't/no longer believe what THEY do.

    In 1981 the Declaration on the Elimination ofAll Forms of Intolerance and of Discrimination Based on Religion or Belief was created. The 1981 Declaration defines discrimination as “any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on religion or beliefthat attempts to abolish the rights freedoms and enjoyments of religious freedom.

    Ummmm... apparently that "don't go to college" teaching has led to even the higher-ups not having much in the way of reading comprehension skills. Either that, or the WTBTS didn't get the "memo" regarding the provisions of General Comment 22, else they would have had to tell the author to "We're not "cultists"... and this is kind of how we treat those who leave/disagree with us... so you might wanna keep our name out of it!"

    Conclusion:

    1. Most of the anticult and counter cult organizations have failed to provide credible research.

    I conclude that:

    1. The author obviously didn't speak to any ex-"cultists" (oh, excuse me, exJWs) or he would have known that the very cult he's trying to protect violates General Comment 22... and its article 18... on a regular, consistent, and ongoing basis itself... and so his "research" isn't credible, either; and

    2. Most anticult organizations have not mentioned the contribution Jehovah’s Witnesses have made to religious freedom in their research.

    2. Because perhaps they DID speak to ex-cultists... and realized the HUGE dichotomy that existed... and so decided to stay mum rather than open up THAT "can of worms" (i.e., make it difficult for those who DO benefit from freedom of religion as a result).

    I have to wonder: who commissioned/paid for the report?

    Mayhaps I'll try and reach Mr. Brown and send him a link to this page... and forum...

    Peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • skeeter1
    skeeter1

    Which group coerces whom?

    I think the JWs shunning by disfellowshipping and disassociation of ex-members does more to control current and ex-followers then the anti-cult movement does. The anti-cult movement does not advocate shunning or splitting apart of families if one decides to join the JWs. But, the JWs advocate shunning and splitting apart of families if one decides to leave the JWs. As a result, thousands, including some on this board, remain active Jehovah's Witness for fear of losing their family & community.

    So, I ask, which group is doing the majority of the coercion? Which group is putting on the pressure? Who's shunning whom?

    We have a 1st amendment right to speak against any religion. We don't have the right to coerce others into shunning their family members or "hint" that families be broken apart.

  • 00DAD
    00DAD

    OP: "... freedom of religion is a human right, and that freedom to hold beliefs and opinions without interference is also a human right."

    It should be obvious that the same principals--US Constitution and international human rights documents--the give JWs the right to believe what they want, also gives everyone else the right to hold the "beliefs and opinions" that JWs are a fanatical, manipulative, lying, destructive cult "without interference".

    The WT weenies that are complaining ought to just STFU. With all the damage they do to people the have no right to complain.

    Besides, this "persecution" is just more proof that they are "right and Armageddon is just around the corner!"

  • trueblue
  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Oh, wait! The author knows about JWN:

    Private Message Boards for Former Jehovah’s Witnesses
    Nothing has been more controversial then the postings from private message boards for former Jehovah’s Witnesses. The most popular message boards are Jehovah’s Witness Discussion Board (JWD) started by Simon Green, and Jehovah’s Witnesses Online (JWO) Dan Ferro. Even within the anticult community JWD and JWO are said to be famous for “flaming” and even “cyber stalking.”JWD founder Simon Green is on the defense because of accusations.There are reports that Green misrepresented statistics about the number of visitors to his site. This issue will be further researched. There has been one court case against a member of JWD and there are reports of cases pending against members of JWO.”

    Whoa...

    Looked up Simon being on the defense: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/22/85447/1.ashx. A lie, of course.

    This guy (John B. Brown, II, of the "Pagan Unity Campaign, Tucson, Arizona") has/had an agenda, of course: http://www.cesnur.org/2006/sd_brown.htm.

    There is a call for papers from CENSUR for their 2012 conference in Morocco. Topics include "Freedom of Religion." We have such talented writers here, I am going to post the invite on a separate thread as someone should "hip" those folks and speak counter to Mr. Brown's very ill-informed position (although we all know he doesn't give a HOOT about the WTBTS but only that it's cases that make it possible for HIS "religion" to exist.

    I'm all for Mr. Brown's religious choices... and I am glad someone (even the WTBTS) fought the battles to make that possible. Doesn't mean they get to turn around to "do unto others AS was done unto them," though. And someone might need to know that that's exactly what they are doing.

    Just my $0.02... and no, I don't think it'll be me what writes a paper; I'm don't write in the proper/traditional academic style enough - too much prose to be considered. But would be neat of someone who DID took a crack at it!

    Peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • 00DAD
    00DAD

    Poor, little picked upon JWs!!!

    Crybaby

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I'm challenging myself not be complacent. In light of the OP, I want to be rigorous in whether apostates discriminate against the Witnesses. So I am trying very hard. There is certainly rage here on any day. In the absence of coercion, physically dragging people out of a KH meeting or throwing ammonia bombs the way Fr. Couglin did at Madison Square Garden, or not speaking to loved ones b/c they attend meetings, I believe people in general, including apostates, treat the Witnesses very well.

    Families have split; loved ones have died b/c of the blood doctrine -- this is rage producing stuff. Yet I've never heard of a lynch mob.

    If the Wt were so secure in its beliefs, why should mere speech from an apostate bother them. Do they mean that Jehovah can't take care of a single apostate. If their doctrine was so pure, why fear losing more members. I recall when Castro and Kruschev came to the UN. Kruschev took off his shoe and banged it on the General Assembly desk, promising to crush us. Missles were pointed at us. The propaganda was intense on both sides. Vast amounts of Americans did not pick up and move to Russia. Castro and Kruschev returned to their respective countries in one piece.

    I keep thinking of C.S. Lewis, writing in The Screwtape Letters, to not fear Satan but to laugh at Satan.

    The crux of the matter is that if you no longer believe in the legitimacy of the WT, what they think matters very little.

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