Luke 7:28 among those born of women there is no one greater than John

by N.drew 12 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    ....yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he" said Jesus. That always bothered me that John would be condemned to earth (I can't say what I'm thinking about that) and the members of the "governing body" who seems to have no clue are going to heaven. So I looked it up.

    I have an alternate interpretation.

    There is no one greater than he who is born of a woman but even he is http://concordances.org/greek/3398.htm small in the realm of the kingdom of heaven because the kingdom of heaven is much greater than one person.

    http://biblos.com/luke/7-28.htm

    Until Jesus made the way to heaven, no man could make his way to heaven, but that does not exclude those who came before Jesus because time isn't linear.

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    The reason I looked it up was I was going to say that the biblical precedent about military service is what John said at Luke 7:28 this; http://bible.cc/luke/3-14.htm but did not say quit the military service.

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    So...I thought this was a pretty damn good revelation....for goodness sake...oh my...what's wrong with me?

  • smiddy
    smiddy

    Luke 7 :28 "Among those born of women" an interesting phrase,is their an alternative ? are their any out their who are born of men ? or ?????

    just saying

    smiddy

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    Haha! Thanks smiddy. Sometimes I think I'm imagining myself. Angels aren't born of women.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    This relates to my topic about the "retroactive" anointing of those who died before Pentecost.

    Jesus was saying that at that point in time, once Pentecost takes place, and that least one in the kingdom was greater than John the Baptist, but at that moment. And that is true. Attaining the kingdom is a greater thing than being the greatest prophet.

    However, the Bible shows Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Daniel, and many others will be part of the heavenly class. The way we reconcile this is by the resurrection back into the flesh. That is, even though any of the elect anointed into the kingdom are greater than John the Baptist at the time of his death, when John comes back in the resurrection in the flesh again, then he can become anointed himself and thus be equal to those who had been anointed before him. So though commonly read that way, this does not mean John would not eventually become a kingdom member himself.

    Now in the context of the GB. Know that only the faithful ones who prove faithful get into the kingdom. Per the Bible, the 10 virgins when applied to the WTS shows that only half the anointed associated with the WTS will attain that prize. Only five wise virgins! So when you compare the apostate GB to John the Baptist, you must realize that those apostate in the GB will not attain the kingdom.

    The first resurrection happens before the 2nd coming, which with accurate chronology occurs in 1992. So John the Baptist, if the greatest prophet of all, has now been resurrected and anointed.

    So the comparison was of the greatness at the time of John's death compared to those who are anointed into the kingdom. These are greater than John. These attain a greatness greather than John had. But, once the resurrection occurs and John is back in the flesh, then he can then get anointed himself. So John and many other ancients like Abraham are not excluded from the kingdom.

    LS

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    well well

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    I had to turn that round so many times, NDrew to understand what you are saying. (Haven't had my coffee yet)

    You are so right. The adjectives in the Greek are comparative not superlative. mikros=small, mikroteros=smaller whereas mikristos=least. So to be faithful to the Greek I reckon your translation and interpretation is better and makes much more sense than the NWT.

    There is no one greater than he who is born of a woman but even he is http://concordances.org/greek/3398.htm small in the realm of the kingdom of heaven because the kingdom of heaven is much greater than one person.

    love it. Plus it fits with other conceptions of earthly and heavenly realms around at the time. Closer to our own time people like Nietzsche (from a non religious viewpoint) encouraged the idea of looking up at the wide starry heavens...

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    You reflect on a very common emotion and sentiment. And that is, how it works out that those who just happen to die after Pentecost get to attain heaven, whereas all those before don't, just because they were born too late. Doesn't that seem odd and just a little unfair? Sure it does! But Jehovah knows how to bend the rules to get what he wants. Christ had to die in sacrifice first, before anyone could be anointed. So it does happen that some after Pentecost, during their lives, attain that greatness that John the Baptist and others didn't attain during their lives. But no problem, they will attain that greatness after the resurrection back into the flesh. Thus the kingdom of the heavens will include many who died before Pentecost.

    Another way we know that Daniel and others will be part of the first resurrection is because it is clear they get their reward during the "last days." Daniel 12:13 "nd as for you yourself, go toward the end; and you will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days." The first resurrection occurs at the end of the days, meaning the last two days of 1000 years before the millennium. There is no resurrection during the millennium so that means Daniel must be part of the 1st resurrection, which is only of the elect. Now Daniel could not be resurrected to heavenly life without being anointed, so the first resurrection must first be in the flesh again, which, of course, is clearly noted in scripture. The resurrection is a two-phase event. First in the imperfect flesh again, and then in the incorruptible spirit.

    But that also makes more sense that Abraham and Daniel and others would be in the kingdom with Christ and not simply enjoy life on the earth, simply because they were born too early.

    Ironically, the same goes within the organization itself. The organization over 77 years from 1914 to 1991 is illustrated by the vineyard workers. An hour is 7 years, so 11 hours is 77 years beginningin 1914. When the third-hour workers come into the picture, they are not told they will receive the "penny", which is heavenly life. So this creates a two-class system within the organization starting with the third-hour workers. The third hour ends after 21 years. Add 21 to 1914 and you get 1935, the year the "other sheep" earthly class was recognzied. So for all those years, the other sheep accepted the lower reward of earthly life whereas the earliest ones in the organization were all of the anointed. Seem a little unfair. Maybe. But note the parable! Once the 12th hour starts and Christ arrives he begins to pay the workers all the same, the penny! That means the other sheep class, are invited into the kingdom after 1991! ALL get the penny, not just the earliest workers! So while our sentiment for those who died before Pentecost was that it seemed a little unfair just because they were born too early, it seems a little unfair for the "other sheep" that they came into the truth too late. But it turns out, that ALL of them, though at different times, are invited into the kingdom!

    So technically, YOU could be one of the anointed! Remember how Christ begins to invite some into the kingdom and they are surprised? They didn't know why they were being invited into the kingdom. So some might not find out they have been chosen for the kingdom until after the millenniuim begins! Even so, if you are chosen, even of the "other sheep" class, you could be part of the heavenly class. But keep in mind, the 144,000 are the natural Jews who are in the kingdom who make up the "root" (Isa 6:13). They are only 1/10th. So the entire number in the kingdom is 10x144K or 1,440,000! So plenty of seats that must be filled. Plus there is a high failure rate of those who were "invited" into the kingdom, those of the anointed who fail. Thus the "grapes of wrath" is a huge number of those Christians and anointed ones who fail to qualify, due to not paying attention to putting the Watchtower's interests over the truth of God's word. Even so, the bottom line is that ALL the workers, meaning including the other sheep from 1935-1991, representing the 3rd through the 11th-hour workers, get the penny just like the first-hour workers! So God is not impartial.

    The anointing may occur at different times for some than others, but who cares, as long as you get into the kingdom!

    So though you might plan to survive Armageddon and live a long life in a paradise earth, there is still a possibility, if you are chosen, that you will attain the greater prize, which is heavenly life with Christ.

    LS

  • sizemik
    sizemik

    Incidentally Lars . . . are you born of woman?

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