by cedars 105 Replies latest watchtower bible
Knowsnothing
Cedars, I didn't mean to sound mean. I apologize if I did. Text can never fully convey emotion like face-to-face.
Don't be silly, you didn't say ANYTHING that sounded mean!! You were right, that's all!
I think Ray Franz documents the transition from totalitarion dictatorship under Knorr to governance by two thirds majority under a Governing Body fairly comprehensively in Crisis of Conscience wouldn't you say?
Cedars
As an aside, all of this pondering and attempts to figure out the "logic", "consistency" or "coherency" of WT Theology is inevitably futile.
From the OUTSIDE it is clear that it's all a fraud, a fabrication wrapped in lies and deception.
I think it's important to take a moment and remember that the particular perspective of this discussion that we're having here on this thread is an attempt to see if the thing even holds together when viewed from the INSIDE out. It doesn't take long when given a careful scrutiny or a close inspection to see that even INSIDE THE WORLD OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES the thing just doesn't make sense!
People only stay in due to the manipulative, controlling tactics of the leaders of the cult. Maybe initially we came in because it sounded good and we wanted to believe or maybe we were Born-in; but either way, the fact is, it just isn't what they claim, it just isn't true.
It's a mess of incoherent nonsense that they, the leaders of the WTBTS from Russell down to the GB of today, are making up as they go along.
Reductio ad absurdum.
00DAD - yes I agree, and it's with those on the INSIDE in mind that I started this thread.
To my mind, few questions are as unanswerable to normal JWs as the one posed in the OP of this thread. That is because there IS no mandate for the Governing Body to wield absolute power in the way it does - EVEN if you believe the 1919/FDS supposition.
By discussing this subject, exploring the historical perspective, and countering possible rebuttals, we are learning how to help those who are still trapped inside (as I still was less than a year ago).
Cedars
[edit post: I posed this question to a close family member who is an elder only a couple of hours ago in a phone conversation, and despite the flailing around in an attempt to find an answer, I could tell that it completely stumped him]
[edit post: I posed this question to a close family member who is an elder only a couple of hours ago in a phone conversation, and despite the flailing around in an attempt to find an answer, I could tell that it completely stumped him]
Cedars, please keep us updated if he comes back with an answer. It would be nice to see what a reply from a "real" JW would be.
On the other hand, I wish you not only stumped him but flatout STUMBLED him
-Yan
Knowsnothing - First of all, you're UserName is so ironic. I'm learning a lot from your posts. I put the explanation of Ingsoc up there because I needed refreshing on what it means and figured others might too. I read "1984" in Junior High School, I'm now 50. Do the math!
You're absolutely right about the relevance of Orwell's writing to the subject at hand. I just finished reading "Animal Farm" last night. Same basic ideas as "1984" but explained more allegorically. In that tale outlining the revolution and subsequent rise to power of Socialism in the USSR post-Czar era, the slogan was "Napoleon is always right". (Reminder: Napoleon was the name of the pig that seized power in "Animal Farm".)
The similarities between what Orwell described in AF and the WTBTS's way of controlling and manipulating its members are truly frightening.
cedars - Yep, I think we're on the same page now. There are just so many inconsistencies and gaping holes in the fabric of WT Theology. Further proof (as if you needed any by this point) that this is NOT God's Visible Organization on Earth.
Did you ever read Dumas' "The Count of Monte Cristo"? In the early part of the book a character is killed and yet with no explanation appears later in the book!?! Dumas and his team of writers were writing this as a serial and apparently failed to notice the goof. Or if they had an explanation in mind, never included it in the narrative. Whatever ...
My digression is that brilliant minds creating a great work of fiction even mess up occasionally and lose the thread. I don't think the G uys from B rooklyn are that smart, and they clearly are NOT inspired by God! The WTBTS's great work of fiction is so full of holes, inconsistencies, flaws and errors it's really a mediocre piece of work. The only reason it's gained such widespread acceptance is due to other psychological, social and religious forces at play. Not because it's true, 'cuz it ain't!
CEDARS: By discussing this subject, exploring the historical perspective, and countering possible rebuttals, we are learning how to help those who are still trapped inside (as I still was less than a year ago).
If LWT were around I'm sure he'd say, "Never discuss doctrine!" Steven Hassan would agree. Send your "close family member who is an elder" a copy of Orwell's "Animal Farm." Maybe that'll get him thinking!
Cheers,
00DAD
00DAD - Glad we're back in synchronicity!
If LWT were around I'm sure he'd say, "Never discuss doctrine!" Steven Hassan would agree.
If I had taken that approach 6 months ago, I wouldn't be where I am now with Mrs Cedars. She still attends meetings, but increasingly does so only to keep family happy. She knows in her heart that it isn't the truth, and now it's just a matter of her finding out why in her own time. She would never be at that stage if I hadn't explained the doctrinal fallacies to her over the last few months.
You can't blame me for trying, little by little, with my other "close family member"!
Cedars
CEDARS: Whatever works, my friend. I have no idea, but it would be good to know if there is a "Magic Bullet" to kill the beast of WT teachings. As you may know, I have two sons, 20 and 17, that are still in. I have some limited communication with the younger one, but the 20 year old won't talk to me at all and hasn't for over 2 years. So I'm all over the idea of trying to figure out what key will unlock the door to their minds/hearts or what lever to use to push them out of their mindless lethargy.
I'll be here to discuss, debate and generally try to figure this thing out together if we can.
I agree, we have to try. The danger is that if we bring up certain subjects in particular ways, then--as you well know--they are trained to go into "Apostate!" mode and immediately stop listening. If that happens we could possibly do more harm than good in our long-term efforts to reach them.
In the mean time, keep up the good work!
00DAD
00DAD - Yes, I agree that you need to be careful, and approach these issues with sesitivity, if you decide it's worthwhile approaching them at all. The "anti-apostate" shield can go up in no time, reducing your reasoned arguments to an incomprehensible noise similar to the voice of the teacher on Charlie Brown!
I certainly sympathise with your own situation. You will want the very best for your two sons, and it must be painful to consider the possibility that they may not reach their full potential as a result of being trapped in this cult. I would find that completely infuriating, as I'm sure you do. Please be patient, and continue to be there for them as a loving father. The rest may follow in time.
I personally think there's a different "magic bullet" for everyone. My own was the "makeweight scenario" which I've already discussed on this forum. Once I realised that the Society's increasing light doctrine wasn't supported by scriptural precendent, the whole house of cards collapsed. That said, I had doubts already - but my Makeweight Scenario was the straw that broke the camel's back. It might be that the question posed in the OP is the "magic bullet" that works for somebody else who already harbors doubts, who knows? It is certainly nice to think that it could be.
Cedars
