So "The Quiet One" now has a problem with my domestic abuse article...

by cedars 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • cedars
    cedars

    Hi everyone

    Sorry about this, I generally don't like confrontation of any kind, but a situation has arisen on another thread, and I thought I would give the Quiet One the opportunity to explain her reasons as to why she dislikes my article on domestic abuse WITHOUT hijacking someone else's thread in the process.

    The sad thing is, I had an entire thread devoted to publicizing this article and receiving feedback, but he/she chose not to say anything on that thread, but have a go at me on an entirely unrelated thread.

    Anyway, I'm copying and pasting the whole conversation so that both sides of the argument can be seen.

    A copy of the offending article can be found here: "'Won Without A Word' - At What Cost?"

    I'm not necessarily asking anyone else to join in the discussion, although you are welcome to do so if you wish to add anything. The purpose of this thread is to give "The Quiet One" the platform that he/she evidently craves to criticize the article in public (I have offered to discuss this over PMs, but that offer hasn't been taken).

    So anyway, sorry about this folks... (sigh)

    Cedars

  • cedars
    cedars

    ORIGINAL THREAD: THE WATCHTOWER SAY'S THEY ARE / ARE NOT INSPIRED

    This is a subject that I've looked into quite a bit. As many have already said, it's a tangled mess. Watch Tower publications conceal little statements and suggestions designed to lead the reader to the conclusion that they ARE directly inspired by God without actually saying so. They say they are NOT prophets, but then they apply the prophesy of the "two prophets" to themselves (Rev 11:3). They say they are not inspired, but that the Holy Spirit "guides" and "directs" them (without distinguishing how exactly this is different from inspiration). I personally think it's all a thinly-veiled attempt to trick people, and go as far as they can towards claiming divine inspiration without actually saying it - therefore freeing themselves of liability when things go wrong, as they so often do.

    Cedars

  • cedars
    cedars

    The Quiet One's answer:

    Wasblind - Just in case my rambling style has hidden my point.. The Deuteronomy scripture can only be applied to the WT if someone can prove, from the WT's own words, that they prophesied that Armageddon would come in 1975 etc in Jehovahs name. Did they say that ' Jehovah will bring about Armageddon in 1975 or any of the other dates' ? If not, the title of false prophet CANNOT be rightly applied. They stated that they were NOT saying Jehovah would bring about Armageddon in 1975. At worst they have been too enthusiastic with a Scriptural theory. They said something that Jehovah did not tell them, but they didn't say it was from Jehovah, did they? The WT have never claimed to be divinely inspired or infallible, or that the publications are. Being guided is different to being inerrant, as I have tried my best to illustrate.. Cedars - With respect, the word 'prophet' does not have to mean someone who makes a prediction of the future and claims that God gave it to them. A prophet can simply be a messenger of God. You're free to believe that the WT are deceptive, but please be careful that you are not (in your sincere enthusiasm), by starting these various campaigns of yours, causing damage and distress to peoples lives, by stirring up trouble for jw's via sensational articles based on your own viewpoint and not the WT's words alone. Otherwise, is your preaching your viewpoint (that could be wrong) on jw's and inciting emotional responses from people who may not have all the facts really any different than jw's spreading (what you view as) propaganda to people who don't know both sides of the story? I don't feel anymore that I could stir up anything against people that can't be undeniably proven to be part of something evil. Just a thought, I'm not attacking you. :)

  • cedars
    cedars

    Cedars - With respect, the word 'prophet' does not have to mean someone who makes a prediction of the future and claims that God gave it to them. A prophet can simply be a messenger of God. You're free to believe that the WT are deceptive, but please be careful that you are not (in your sincere enthusiasm), by starting these various campaigns of yours, causing damage and distress to peoples lives, by stirring up trouble for jw's via sensational articles based on your own viewpoint and not the WT's words alone. Otherwise, is your preaching your viewpoint (that could be wrong) on jw's and inciting emotional responses from people who may not have all the facts really any different than jw's spreading (what you view as) propaganda to people who don't know both sides of the story? I don't feel anymore that I could stir up anything against people that can't be undeniably proven to be part of something evil. Just a thought, I'm not attacking you. :)

    The Quiet One - I'd rather not waste my time by getting into a prolonged exchange with an apologist. I note that you choose to believe that there are multiple applications for the role of "prophet". The bible only prescribes ONE, but if you choose to believe differently to what the bible says, then that is your decision - and you are in good company in the Witness faith. You claim that I do not give both sides of the story in my articles, but if you'd actually read my last article on domestic abuse you would see that I did note that occasionally WT publications will give useful advice on the issue, but such instances are few and far between. As far as the claim that I cause "damage and distress to people's lives", I wish I could tell you exactly what damage has been done in my family by the Watch Tower Society and its publications. I have an elderley relative about to die of a horrible illness because he believes that blood transfusions are wrong, and I have relatives shunning one another EVEN THOUGH nobody is disfellowshipped - purely because certain ones are looked down on for not being strong enough in the "Truth". If you think that giving people who have been silenced a voice on the JW Survey and highlighting the damage caused by the WT's domestic abuse policy and hate-invoking rhetoric (i.e. mentally diseased) compares even remotely to killing people by making them refuse blood and setting close family members against one another - then you are entitled to this opinion. And again, you are in good company.

    Cedars

  • cedars
    cedars

    The Quiet One's answer...

    CEDARS - Your survey isn't going to cause problems for jw's, I wasn't referring to that. I'll drop this subject, you seem to be getting wound up and you're obviously going through a difficult time, I'm sorry.. On this point, though... CEDARS SAID: "I note that you choose to believe that there are multiple applications for the role of"prophet". The bible only prescribes ONE, but if you choose to believe differently to what the bible says, then that is your decision - and you are in good company in the Witness faith."... The WT do not claim to be inspired to tell the future, but are still 'prophets'. Here's an outside source to counter your claim that there was only 1 kind of prophet in the Bible. -- 'The foretelling of future events was not a necessary but only an incidental part of the prophetic office. The great task assigned to the prophets whom God raised up among the people was “to correct moral and religious abuses, to proclaim the great moral and religious truths which are connected with the character of God , and which lie at the foundation of his government .” Any one being a spokesman for God to man might thus be called a prophet. Thus Enoch , Abraham , and the patriarchs , as bearers of God 's message ( Gen. 20:7 ; Ex. 7:1 ; Ps. 105:15 ), as also Moses ( Deut. 18:15 ; 34:10 ; Hos. 12:13 ), are ranked among the prophets.' http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/prophet.html

  • cedars
    cedars

    The Quiet One - Your reasoning is superfluous to the perceived objective of this discussion, and doesn't contradict anything I've said (e.g. a prophet is still a prophet, irrespective of how he or she is prophesying). Also, I think you would get a bit 'wound up' if someone accused you of causing "damage and distress to people's lives" - unless you no longer stand by those words? FYI - if you have a bone to pick with me, it is probably best to PM me directly rather than trying to besmirch my reputation on this forum. If your goal is to besmirch my reputation, then by all means start up a "Quiet One v. Cedars" thread, and I will gladly answer your accusations publically on there.

    Cedars

  • cedars
    cedars

    The Quiet One's answer...

    CEDARS - I wasn't accusing you of causing damage to peoples lives, sorry if it sounded like I was. I just meant that if someone starts up campaigns that incite persecution, that are not based on something the WT has directly said, they could cause some damage to jw's lives based on their own assumptions of an articles intent. As for the WT causing more harm.. Whether the damage you may cause with your opinion is less than the damage caused by the WT's opinion is not relevant as to whether it is right or wrong to unnecessarily cause damage. All I meant is that if someone, such as you, bases their public accusations on their view of the Wt's words, (and not their words alone) and runs away with that assumption by saying that (for example, claiming that the WT is telling women to stay with men that regularly beat them, not that you have necessarily said that but some could see it that way) they intended something beyond the actual words they have said, would you not admit that they could possibly be wrong? And if they were wrong, and they had incited trouble for people by that assumption, they would be at least partly responsible for the damage, wouldn't they? I am not saying that your campaigns are wrong, in case that is unclear. I used you as an example because of you are the best known on JWN for starting campaigns.. I'm only suggesting that people should base their accusations on what is printed, not what they think was meant.. The best way is just quoting the words, and even the article as a whole to give context, as an unbiased journalist would do and then letting people decide for themselves or enquire as to what was meant to the person/organisation that made the statement. Just something for people to think about, I'm not trying to damage your reputation. Please don't take a sincere and honest criticism and turn it into a fight. I'm not attacking you, just suggesting what I feel is a better way to give people information regarding the WT, without causing trouble that may not be necessary. Thanks for listening.

  • cedars
    cedars

    The Quiet One - So if I'm reading you correctly, I should stop publishing my opinions on Watch Tower policy, and stop giving people the opportunity to vote on relevant issues, because by doing so I am inciting persecution?

    Please explain how this is...

    Cedars

  • cedars
    cedars

    All I meant is that if someone, such as you, bases their public accusations on their view of the Wt's words, (and not their words alone) and runs away with that assumption by saying that (for example, claiming that the WT is telling women to stay with men that regularly beat them, not that you have necessarily said that but some could see it that way) they intended something beyond the actual words they have said, would you not admit that they could possibly be wrong? And if they were wrong, and they had incited trouble for people by that assumption, they would be at least partly responsible for the damage, wouldn't they?

    Whether I am right or wrong is for people to decide for themselves, and I am just as entitled to express my opinions as you are. When I express my opinions on an issue as sensitive as domestic abuse, I am sure to do so having first researched the topic thoroughly (the domestic abuse article was written over a weekend), and with a conscious effort not to say anything that is untrue or misleading in any way. If people then read my articles and agree with me, I can't see how this would in itself "incite trouble" for which I am to be held liable? If I am to be held liable for voicing my opinions on domestic abuse, does not the same reasoning apply to the Governing Body?

    You pose a lot of questions and make some pretty big claims, but you don't really explain your reasoning. It appears that you are trying to assert that freedom of speech is a negative thing. Again, you are in good company with JWs.

    Cedars

  • cedars
    cedars

    The Quiet One's answer (all five parts)...

    Firstly, I'm not against free speech at all, you have every right to express your views. But regarding this claim that you are not misleading anyone... CEDARS said: "with a conscious effort not to say anything that is untrue or misleading in any way." -- Perhaps you tried not to be misleading. But even with all of your caveats, you failed to explain a vital detail, which is.. the difference between the public and study editions of the WT, and who they are written for. If you are truly not trying to be misleading then you would explain, for the benefit of readers that aren't active jw's, that the Study edition is for baptised Jw's (or students who will be taught the Bible-based policies in the Bible Teach book) who know and choose to obey the Biblical command of Jesus to not divorce for anything except adultery and that THEY would ALREADY know the WT stance on marital seperation.. They would know that it is the persons choice, with no punishment, to leave or not to leave their partner; where abuse, endangerment or wilful nonsupport are involved. Jw's who read this WT article WOULD KNOW that domestic abuse is not condoned by the WT, with no need for a footnote disclaimer (which would obviously have been entirely necessary for a magazine article aimed at the public). But you don't explain this at all... You instead let some people believe that this experience was meant for people who didn't already know that domestic violence is not condoned by the WT. The ones who already know that it isn't condoned, the people who the article was intended for, do not need to be reminded with a footnote.

    CEDARS BLOG said: "Could the Watch Tower Society's out-dated approach to domestic violence be putting thousands of women in harm's way?" -- This is misleading. The WTS doesn't tell anyone that they should stay with a violent partner, the victim can seperate from them, taking themselves out of harms way.. and the command to not divorce for domestic violence (or any grounds other than adultery) comes from the Bible, even if you decide to rewrite Jesus's words... Therefore the 'approach', as in not divorcing for domestic violence (but seperation is allowed), is actually the Bible's approach, not the WT's. This opening statement is sensationalism to me, and immediately reveals your bias to a discerning reader, as you make it seem like it is the Societys approach for women to stay living with the offender, which combined with a picture of a distressed woman, is obviously going to engage emotions first, rather than clear and logical thinking right from the start.. Baptised jw's know the answer to your question, and you know full well that this is the STUDY edition, not written for the general public.

    CEDARS BLOG said: "This does not mean, however, that quoting such an experience in the absence of any condemnation of domestic violence was wise or appropriate" -- This was quoted in the Study edition, so such a condemnation was unnecessary, as baptised jw's know that we do NOT condone domestic violence. Only the PUBLIC edition would need such a disclaimer, as jw's know this.. According to your logic, a hypothetical experience printed in the WT Study edition where: A jw woman was denied necessary money for food and clothing by her unbelieving husband on the day before she had her Bible study. Having been told about this, the sister studying with the woman encouraged her to pray to Jehovah about the matter and read her 'the long-suffering scripture' (or any other to do with enduring), and pointed out that her husband was not a Christian and so she could not expect him to apply him to 'provide for those who are his own'. She decided to stay with her husband and eventually he came into the Truth... would need a footnote stating that Jw's do not condone wilful nonsupport, or that she could have left him for wilful nonsupport (and that would involve assuming that he continued to deny her money, just as you assumed with the article that the physical abuse continued throughout all those years) ? No it wouldn't.. Because all Jw's would know this about wilful nonsupport, it's in the Bible Teach book (which every Jw has studied at least once)!... As is seperation for abuse.

    CEDARS BLOG said: "In no way does it command any wife who faces abuse from her non-believing husband to remain with him regardless, and endure a violent relationship in the blind hope that he will eventually embrace her faith and stop abusing her." -- Seeing as how you are claiming that this is how the WT applies this scripture, the ambiguity of your wording, 'remain with him', is misleading because it makes it sound as though it is the WT's stance that the wife must physically stay with him. It would be more honest and open of you to use the words 'remain scripturally married to him', (as even a legal divorce is allowed, as you admit), and also to not use the term 'command' as you know perfectly well that the WTS does not COMMAND anyone to remain living with an abusive partner. The context makes it clear that you are contrasting the scripture with WTS policy, and yet your wording would mislead people as to what the WT policy on domestic abuse is. A jw woman/man CAN leave a partner who is beating them, endangering them or wilfully not providing for them, as any jw knows from the Bible Teach book. They would not even have a Judicial, let alone be disfellowshiped. The decision to stay/not stay with the abuser is theirs alone, it's not anyones right to tell them what they have to do in their situation. The scripture you refer to is applied in WT's to show that some have treated their wives badly, but have changed when they became a Jw. It's offering a hope that change can happen, the only other alternative scripturally is to live life as a seperated married person, or commit the sin of adultery. You can view that offer of hope as the WT wanting women to stay with men who beat them if you want to..

    CEDARS BLOG said :"In fact, the Governing Body has used the pages of its literature to try and dissuade victims of domestic violence from availing themselves of, for example, the emergency services" -- Here you claim as a fact (that the GB has deliberately dissuaded victims from contacting the emergency services) something that you admitted earlier in your article was only (what you perceived as) an IMPLICATION in the 1979 Awake article. Is that honest?

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit