If you look at the verse, Satan said '' bow down AND worship me/do an act of worship to me. " Bowing down does not have to indicate worship in all cases, it can be merely in respect or submission. Look at the two meanings of the word proskuneo, you will realise that it then becomes a translator decision.. http://jehovah.to/xlation/wo.html
Why didn't Jehovah ??
by Phizzy 45 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Ucantnome
The Quiet One,
Yes that's how I understand it.
However I think bowing before a god is worship.
Especially if you are known as one of his followers.
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The Quiet One
Okay, but unless you can prove from the Bible that the disciples thought that Jesus was the Almighty God, (a god simply means a divine being, an angel can be referred to as a god), the term obeisance could apply as an accurate translation. Jesus was a representative for Jehovah, as were the angels in Genesis 18 who spoke for Jehovah (none of them were Jehovah, for 'no man has seen God'), so the disciples following Jesus, who reflected his Fathers personality and ways, or even addressing him as Lord or bowing to him as Abraham did with the angels, proves nothing as to whether they thought he was God.. The NWT, and thus the Jw's as they base their doctrine on its translation of key verses, could be right, couldn't they? "Did the disciples believe that Jesus was God? That is a topic for another discussion, but there is one very interesting point raised by Professor Jason Beduhn. It concerns Matthew 28:17: Greek και ιδοντες αυτον προσεκυνησαν αυτω, οι δε εδιστασαν KJV when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. NIV When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted. NWT and when they saw him they did obeisance, but some doubted. Can a person worship and doubt at the same time? As we have established above, the narrower rendering 'worship' can be justified only if we can prove that the disciples believed Jesus to be God. This verse indicates that some of them not only doubted that he is God, but they even doubted that it was Jesus. In these circumstances, the rendering 'worshipped' is very hard to justify." http://jehovah.to/xlation/wo.html
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The Quiet One
(relating to a god not having to be God Almighty, even an angel could be a god)..Theos -- 4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way a. God's representative or viceregent http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2316
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The Quiet One
To clarify, the angels in Genesis 18 were not Jehovah (John 1:18), yet Abraham bowed to them.. And they could have been referred to as gods, because they spoke for Jehovah. Jesus' disciples bowed to him+he was a god (representative of Jehovah) does not = they thought he was God. For a Biblical example of god meaning 'representative'.. See Exodus 7:1
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Ucantnome
yet Abraham bowed to them
I don't think that Abraham viewed them in this manner
“My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28)
I think this scripture shows the difference
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”?Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
(Heb. 1:5-6 NIV)
Surely worship has to do with what you do. How you view the god. I use money but it's not my god. I don't worship it. Some people owe me money and don't pay, so what. I trust in God. I respect money and would do what I can to retrieve what is owed but it doesnt worry me.
I view Christ as my Lord and as Peter said I do my utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished a slave of him. This sounds like worship to me.
You may find interesting to read a book by the Jewish scholar Jacob Neusner A Rabbi talks to Jesus. I have the book but have not read it yet.
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Ucantnome
"Did the disciples believe that Jesus was God?
The reason I mention the book is this comment you made and in another book I am reading it is mentioned in regard to this.
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Balsam
I've read some interesting things from Jewish scholars about the use of God's name and what it is. Check it out online and you get a better scoop on it by Jewish scholars than Christians scholars. After all it began with the Jewish Torah (1st 5 books of the bible).
The other thought I had because of reading what biblical scholars say about the New Testement, it was never intended for mass reading by people 2000 years in the future. Jewish writing were already put to paper about 600 BCE and when the bible speaks in 2 Timothy Ch. 3 about "all scriptures is inspired" it was refering to Jewish writings, not the letters that circulated among the early Christians.Most Christians miss apply that scripture.
It is something to think about. Also the the stories of the bible were different human experiences with the divine. We're they intended to be taken personally and believed literally? I don't think so. Jewish historians and scholars poor over the ancient laws and try to modify them for todays world without a lot of success. They were guilds to living in the world it was written for not our day and time.
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The Quiet One
UCANTNOME SAID: "I view Christ as my Lord and as Peter said I do my utmost to be found finally by him spotless andunblemished a slave of him. This sounds like worship to me. " -- Abrahams wife called him Lord, even in her heart. People have been slaves for human Lords, with no worship/worshipful adoration involved, just respect and obedience. Look up the word Lord.. And Jesus had the ability to read people and to know who they really are, even on earth, making him a fitting judge.. None of the things that you mentioned need to involve worshipping Jesus. Again, who did Jesus promote the worship of whilst on earth, whose name did he sanctify, and who did he tell his disciples to pray to? As you admit, Abraham didn't view the angels as God, he didn't worship the angels..but he bowed to them as Gods representative. Unless it can be proven from the context in the Bible itself that Jesus' disciples worshipped him, rendering proskuneo as 'worship' in regard to Jesus is unfounded and could show more bias than the NWT did in translating a word that can equally mean 'obeisance' according to the context. Read your NWT, or a less biased translation that doesn't insist that proskuneo must mean the same thing, one that doesn't tell you that Abraham WORSHIPPED the three angels..(would an angel allow this?) with an unbiased mentality. You'll find that Jehovah alone was to be worshipped, Jesus to be honoured and submitted to on bended knee, or bowed down to as anyone would to a King who ruled over them.. Except he is a heavenly ruler, which is why the angels do obeisance to him as well. I've enjoyed this discussion..
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Ucantnome
The Quiet One,
I view Christ as my Lord and as Peter said I do my utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished a slave of him. This sounds like worship to me.
The reason it sounds like worship to me is the Christ is called a god.
I am known as a Christian. I am a follower of Christ. I would die for my belief in him.
I think if I were to say any of those things about someone else you would have no trouble in believing I worshipped them.