Anglo-Catholic

by Band on the Run 20 Replies latest jw friends

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  Band on the Run

  I hope this is n ot a repeat thread. New Year's Day I attended services at a first rate Anglo-Catholic Church. Despite being Episcopal since about the age of 20, this service was so different. Only some of the service was familiar. They refuse to use any actual BCP materials. Only Catholic missals translated from Latin to English through Henry VIII;s orders are used. Wikipedia provided research that in 1549 the Uniformity Act. Henry died, his 5 year old son became king with the Seymours (Reformers) as regents. There would be no local usages anymore. Submit or die. The very Catholic areas of England, Cornwall and Devon, resisted heartily. I believe almost 30,000 lost their lives in policing and pitched battle.

  Oh, they worshipped Mary. This was a true shock. I thought Mary is really a cool goddess. My JW gm and father are still in me. I had to stop saying the prayer half way through.

  It was entertaining and gave me much room for thought. This month the shrine to King Charles I,martyr, is being rededicated. Charles I was beheaded by strong Puritans.England had no king during Cromwell's lifetime.

  I respect the diversity of worship forms in the present church. If anyone has experience with this branch, I'd like to hear other people's opinions.

  Oh, a magnificent organ and incense.
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  cofty

  High Anglicans do ceremony extremely well.

  The history of the English church is fascinating. The area I live in is littered with ruins of Abbeys that were desecrated by Henry's men.

  Jedburgh Abbey is a good example

  
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  Isidore

  No offense BOTR, but there is no such thing as "Anglo Catholic". This is term is used by conservative Anglican's who don't like how liberal the Anglican church has become, but have not made the leap to reunite with Rome. You are either Catholic, or you're not. And FWIW, Catholics do not worship Mary, they venerate her since she is the Mother of God incarnate, Jesus Christ.

  Love the old photo, cofty. All the old ruined Abbey's belonged to the Catholics before Henry threw his temper tantrum about ol' Anne and not getting his way. Sad, really.
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  cofty

  Anglo Catholics is a commonly used term in England. Tony Blair and his daft wifey were two famous examples before they went the whole hog and converted to popery.

  High Anglican is perhaps a more accurate description of that part of the church. It would be difficult for an outsider to spot the difference between a High Anglican and a Catholic service.

  Here is Lindisfarne Priory just few miles from my house.

  
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  Isidore

  Hi, Cofty. I'm familiar with the term "Anglo Catholic". Is there is a reason you use the term "popery", when it is really a derogatory term used by those that have a bias against the Catholic Church? Is this the case with yourself? If so, why?

  I agree "High Anglican" is probably a better description for those that appear to be more traditional. The fact is, some of what is seen in the traditional Anglican liturgy was in place before the split from Rome. Cranmer "fine tuned" (read eradicated much of the authentic Catholic teachings) some things when he produced the "Book of Common Prayer" at the behest of Henry.
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  cofty

  Yes I admit to despising the Roman Catholic Church. I don't mean to offend you but the facts show that the RC church has been is a force for great harm throughout history. The final nail in the coffin was the Irish pedophile priest scandal. They make the Watchtower look like Mary Poppins.

  Cranmer "fine tuned" (read eradicated much of the authentic Catholic teachings) some things when he produced the "Book of Common Prayer" at the behest of Henry

  When the book was first used in Edinburgh at St Giles Cathedral a local woman Jean Geddes threw her stool at the Dean of Edinburgh John Hannah sparking a riot that culminated in the "National Covenant".

  St Giles today

  

  Hope I'm not hijacking your thread with pics BOTR?
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  Band on the Run

  wikipedia, the only source I could afford, titles its article "Anglo-Catholicism." Within NY and Philadelphia, they are called Anglo-Catholics by all sorts of Episcolpalians. There are jokes as to whether they are truly Anglican but they are just cute jokes. The wiki article said that recent years the term Anglican Catholic is preferred by some Anglo-Catholics.

  I was not submitting a dissertation on Anglo-Catholicism. What is not Catholic or not. Henry VIII had deep belief in all Roman Catholic matters save the Pope. After the split with Rome, (and he was not excommunicated for many years after the split), Roman Catholic monarchies still courted him to make marriage treaties with Henry, Mary, Elizabeth, and Edward. Nuance exists. Many English Catholics hated Rome as a too distant ruler. They deeply believed in all key doctrines, however.

  I don't have the time to learn the deep history of the C of E. My years as an American Anglican have focused on the Rome/England split. The article about the Prayer Book uprising discussed how the Reformers mixed Lutheran elements with the existing Catholic ones. Eastern Rite churches say they are catholic. It means universal. There was no harsh lines drawn by anyone. Civil war existed in England for many generations until Elizabeth. Both the Pope and Henry exchanged many diplomatic messages to consider a truce. They were not preachers or purists but very political men.

  Marian worship is discussed in many places. I have never seen it referred to as Mary veneration. I find veneration of Mary completely out of line with scripture. IMO. What is interesting is that in England there is a strong linkage between pagan Druid water goddesses and shrines to Mary. Almost all shrines to Mary were just plopped down on Druid water goddess shrines. It is my understanding from many sources that Mary was not venerated or worshipped until the close of the millenium. Everyone expected Christ's Second Coming and just like me, they were terrified of Jah's wrath. The solution was to find a female mother source that people believed could intercede with these wrathful male figures just as human moms tend to do.

  This is an interest of mine but not my burning passion. I posted to hear other opinion's not to have my mere act of posting derided. One could say I disagree without being so strident. This form is full of mostly unnecesary stridency which leads to arguments where they do not need to be.
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  Isidore

  Cofty, I'm not offended in the least. If I had a nickel for every time I heard your comment in my apologetics work, I'd be a very rich man. There have been dark times to be sure in the Church, but to state that the Church has done great harm is to totally ignore all the good that it has done that has far outweighed the bad. I think the Church has done a far better job in addressing the deplorable actions that have taken place amongst a few gross pedophiles than the WTBS, who simply deny the problems even take place, so your comment I feel is a little unbalanced due to understandable emotion about the subject. I know all too well about this problem, as it has affected someone very close to me in my family whilst they were an active JW.

  One cannot condemn the deposit of faith of the Church because of the action of sinners that are in it. The would be like me saying that "Because Mr. Smith's cousin is a terrible sinner, all the Smiths are to be steered cleared of."

  Christ came for the sinners, not the righteous. If the Church were as perfect as you would wish it to be, you yourself would not be allowed in it. It's because it does have sinners in it that it has a place for you and me.
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  tec

  I think Cofty might have been referring to more than just pedophiles. Things like the crusades, the inquisition, burning people at the stake... those sorts of things. Just sayin'.

  Peace,

  Tammy
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  Band on the Run

  A few priest pedophiles! The investigation in Ireland revealed such numbers and deplorable conduct that Ireland severed all ties with the Vatican.

  To say a few gross pedophile is denial of the highest order. I could understand it about ten years ago. Certainly, every religion will have pedophiles. The Roman Catholic Church elevated the protection of pedophiles to great art. Almost every country with a sizeable Catholic population has been absolutely revolted and shocked by church documents that litigation revealed.

  Requiring celibacy from men unfortunately sweeps in perverts. Many Catholics refused to donate any more money to archdioceses b/c of the revolutions. Rather than give at church, they have lists of Catholic charities, separate from the hierachy, and donate money to those groups.