Watchtower Apologist does not find Don Cameron's book acceptable!

by Terry 17 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry
    Terry

    http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/category/don-cameron-a-captive-of-misconcepts/

    The above link connects to a Blog site titled:

    Setting the record straight's Blog
    One of Jehovah's Witnesses

    (Please read this BEFORE my own redacted version.)

    On this particular site, the author sets forth Apologia on behalf of the Watchtower Society.
    In particular, his polemic deals with the book: Captives of a Concept. (as) Don Cameron: A Captive of MISconcepts

    _______________________________________________________________________

    We take up with Chapter 6. Cameron's words are quoted:
    Page 48:

    " But again, it is not an abstract the organization that decides what everyone else must believe. Prior to 1976 it was the president who made those decisions. Since 1976 a small governing body of men has made them. In actual practice then, the various terms used for God’s organization refer to these men who are hidden behind those terms."
    __________________________________________________________________

    The Blogger commences his Apologia followed by my comments in smaller text.


    The May 15, 1925, issue of The Watchtower said: “All holy angels are a part of God’s organization.”

    Additionally, it said: “At the head of God’s organization, possessing all power and authority, [is] the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Matthew 28:18)

    Hence, in its broadest sense, God’s organization is made up of all those in heaven and on earth who work together to do God’s will, not “a small

    governing body of men” as Cameron alleges and would have his readers believe.
    __________________________________________________________________________

    Two points here: 1. What an organization is "composed of" is hardly the same thing as who its actual leaders are. 2.The Nazis were a National Socialist Party composed of thousands of persons.

    Does this mean their unswerving loyalty was not commanded by Hitler?
    __________________________________________________________________________

    If before 1976 there wasn’t a governing body(according to Cameron) but yet there were other religions who believed the “same things” as Jehovah’s

    Witnesses, how can Cameron assert that Jehovah’s Witnesses only believe what “a small governing body of men” tell them when other religions have

    the “same” beliefs? There is no doubt other religions that had similar beliefs to Jehovah’s Witnesses “before and after 1919” arrived at their own

    conclusions independently from the Watchtower Society. But yet, when Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the “same things” Cameron says it is only

    because the governing body is telling them to believe them.
    _____________________________________________________________________________

    This is like saying Beethovens 5th Symphony cannot be called completely unique because the notes contained therein have been used in every other

    composer's works prior. The Governing Body are the composers, arrangers and conductors of the Jehovah's Witness orthodoxy during this period of

    time from 1942 until now.
    ______________________________________________________________________________

    I can assure you, it is not merely because “their leaders demanded unquestioning trust and submission to their directions.” Primarily, if their belief

    system wasn’t based on the Bible truths then it is obvious they didn’t have “God’s backing.”
    _____________________________________________________________________________

    This assumes facts not in evidence. To wit: that other religion's interpretations have God's backing or that the Watchtower Society has God's backing.

    The extraordinary number of denominations calling themselves Christian certainly demonstrates there in no practical normative "christianity.'
    __________________________________________________________________________

    Secondly, they (other denominations) formed in the 1930’s and 50’s, meaning that they would have missed the ‘Parousia’ of Christ and

    therefore, couldn’t have even been inspected in 1918-9.

    They were not preaching the Good News of the Kingdom of God and were not feeding Christ’s other

    sheep. These points brought up are just some of the Biblical requirements showing who would have “God’s backing” and approval.
    _________________________________________________________________________

    Again, assuming facts not in evidence (merely asserted). To wit: That any "parousis" of christ ever took place. That any denomination was, in fact, inspected.

    That the preaching was or wasn't Good news. That the author is competent to declare factually what is or isn't "God's approval" above any other opinion.

    _____________________________________________________________________________
    Jehovah’s Witnesses are encouraged to “make sure of all things” and “hold fast to what is fine”, not merely to “give…unquestioning trust and

    submission.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Once again, ... a false and misleading representation and image of Jehovah’s Witnesses ...
    _________________________________________________________________________

    It would stretch credulity to the breaking point to suggest any Jehovah's Witness gets to "make sure" of anything beyond what is printed by the Watchtower.

    The mere questioning of established and official Theocratic Dogma will result in being "marked" and counseled not to "run ahead" or "spread divisions" among the brothers.

    Such persons usually end up disfellowshipped and labeled "apostate" and mentally diseased!

    Why did I post this reference to a Watchtower Apologist blog?

    It is highly instructive as to what passes for keen intelligence in rebuttal and clear thinking for JW's, for one thing. Secondly, the inability to pinpoint foundational arguments by clearly establishing facts into evidence is telling. Why? Because JW's, I would say, are so accustomed to accepting assertion as proof it becomes second nature.

    I would encourage your own additional factual rebuttal and when we're done I'll send the author a Hyperlink to this topic!

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    Jehovah’s Witnesses are encouraged to “make sure of all things” and “hold fast to what is fine”,

    Accept putting the WTS's own doctrines through subjective scrutiny by using the bible or any other means.

    This is not tolerated, anyone in doing so will be duly muzzled and forth rightly demonised by their fellow spiritual peers.

    Anyone finding discrepancies in are doctrines are expected to shut up about it and keep it to themseves......or else !

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    Why is this apologist reading apostate literature?

  • bob1999
    bob1999

    This guy does not even know what the WTS teaches.

    The WTS clearly teaches that the bible is a sealed book to all but them.

    "Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book," (Watchtower, July 1, 1973, p. 402)."

    ""We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the 'faithful and discreet slave' organization," (Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1981)."

    Yet when Don says that those who join have failed to "carefully examine" the WTS claims about who is the F&DS this guy objects.

    If the bible is a sealed book to all but the F&DS how can anyone "carefully examine" anything?

    This guy goes on to say that there is no “illusionary concept”.

    I would call the bible being a sealed book to all but this organization an "illusionary concept".

    As is "we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the 'faithful and discreet slave' organization"

    To be clear, the WTS is talking about itself here.

    So without the bible as a guide, this according to the WTS, how can anyone, who is not yet part of the organization, carefully examine the Watchtower’s claim?

    In fact, according to WTS teaching, even a member can't understand and has to follow the teachings of the F&DS.

    This guy does not understand what the WTS teaches.

    Peace

  • Terry
    Terry

    Good points!

  • bob1999
    bob1999

    Yeah, It's kind of a catch 22 thing.

    This guy should agree with Don on this point even if for a different reason.

    Peace

  • bob1999
    bob1999

    Don wrote,

    "It doesn’t register with Jehovah’s Witnesses that if the Society could pass a “food-at-the-proper-time” examination by Jesus Christ today, it means that they would have failed the same exam in 1919 because so much of what they had been teaching then was not what they are teaching now."

    This guy says,

    "Now it has become blatantly obvious Cameron makes the same wrong conclusion over and over and over. He assumes the Society had to have everything correct at the appointment of 1919. Where does the Bible ever suggest Christ’s temple would have to be flawless at the appointment? It doesn’t."

    I won't argue "flawless" but "giving food at the proper time" was the test.

    From there own bible.

    Matthew 24 :45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so."

    The appointment was to give "food at the peoper time".

    Teaching wrong things is not giving "food at the proper time". It's more like giving rotten food at the wrong time.

    His argument about "the refinement" is beside the point.

    Peace

  • Terry
    Terry

    It takes a lot practice to spot presuppositions easily.

    Once you get the hang of it, however, it repays you tenfold.

    The presupposition that "food at the proper time" requires in order to function as TRUTH is twofold:

    1. Identify what "FOOD" is.

    2. Identify what "Proper time" is.

    What was being taught in 1919 was "eaten" as though it were nutritious and salubrious.

    Does what you eat--regardless of content--always consist of FOOD? If so, munching rat feces is food.

    The articles, doctrines, dogma published in the Watchtower publications in 1919 hung on the pivotal understanding 1925 would bring Armageddon and the resurrection. Since Rutherford apologized (I made an ass out of myself) we can conclude the time was PROPER only if exposing fraud was its object.

  • outsmartthesystem
    outsmartthesystem

    DC - Today the only way they can be loyal to “God’s organization” is to be loyal to the men of the Governing Body.

    WT apologist - This is simply another untrue statement by Cameron. To be “loyal” to “God’s organization” you must be loyal to the Bible, the brethren, and to Jah and Christ’s will. Cameron tries to twist the teaching of the “Faithful and Discreet Slave” and manipulate it to a point, where he can get his reader to fall into his scheme, that is, the idea that Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs are in the hands of a select few. The truth is the belief system of Jehovah’s Witnesses is based on the Bible and not on a “small governing body of men.” In fact, Cameron proves this when he wrote in chapter 3 about the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses and how the teachings were not unique to them:

    OSTS - No....to be "loyal" to "God's Organization" you must be loyal to HOW THE GOVERNING BODY INTERPRETS AND TRANSLATES THE BIBLE. Because how they interpret and translate it is interlinked with the "bretheren", Jah and Christ's will. The belief system of Jehovah's Witnesses is not based on the bible. It is based on the bible AS UNDERSTOOD BY THE GOVERNING BODY. And then those teachings are relayed down to the rank and file witness.

    DC - God’s name is not “God,” God is not a Trinity, Jesus is not God, the soul is not immortal, hell is not hot, the dead are not conscious, and the earth will not be destroyed. But there were others who taught these same things before and after 1919.

    WT Apologist - There is a contradiction on Cameron’s part. First he says the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses are not necessarily unique to them and that others believed the “same things before and after 1919.” Then in this chapter (chapter 6) he says Jehovah’s Witnesses believe what “a small governing body of men” tells them to believe. If before 1976 there wasn’t a governing body(according to Cameron) but yet there were other religions who believed the “same things” as Jehovah’s Witnesses, how can Cameron assert that Jehovah’s Witnesses only believe what “a small governing body of men” tell them when other religions have the “same” beliefs? There is no doubt other religions that had similar beliefs to Jehovah’s Witnesses “before and after 1919” arrived at their own conclusions independently from the Watchtower Society. But yet, when Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the “same things” Cameron says it is only because the governing body is telling them to believe them. In simple terms: other religions believe the “same things” as Jehovah’s Witnesses because of their study from the Bible. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe these “same things” it is only because the governing body tells them too. Does anybody else see the hypocrisy and double standard set by Cameron? Not only is there discrepancies in his logic but there is also inconsistencies in his application of the same logic. Nothing short of a double standard.

    OSTS - How is that a contradiction? The leader of an organization does not need his teachings to be completely unique in order to still have complete and udder control over what his followers believe. Now that North Korea has a new leader, Kim Jong Un, he will undoubtedly do SOME things differently than his father. The first indication is that he will resurrect nuclear talks. But that doesn't change his operation. North Korea will still operate as a military hard line controlling communist country. Most of his rulings will be exactly like his father's. Therefore you could say that he and his rule are not at all unique. (similar to JWs and Adventists for example). Yet don't all 26 million people under the NK regime listen to and believe him? Aren't they are under his mind control even though he is not unique in his approach? You don't have to have UNIQUE beliefs in order to be a controlling faction. When the apologist indicates that Cameron is saying "other religions believe the same things as Jehovah's Witnesses because of their study of from the Bible, but Jehovah's Witnesses believe these same things only because the governing body tells them to" he is guilty of misrepresenting Cameron. That is not at all what Cameron was saying. He was merely making the point that OTHER RELIGIONS BELIEVED THE SAME THINGS. He did not say that the other religions believed that way because they were guided by God....or because of their study of the bible. He was simply stating that the "ideas" of Russell and Rutherford were nothing more than regurgitated thoughts of people before them. And Cameron gives no indication that those people were any more guided by God than Russell and Rutherford. Yet that is what the WT apologist wants you to believe. Here, he inserts his own straw man argument. His argument is that Cameron is teaching that Witnesses believe what they are told to believe by the GB....but those that had the same beliefs before them believed because of their diligent study of the bible. And that THIS is a double standard by him. Well....IF that is what Cameron was teaching then perhaps it would be a double standard. But like I said....that is NOT what Cameron was saying. Unfortunately in order to try to discredit Don Cameron.....the Watchtower apologist must first misrepresent him.

  • outsmartthesystem
    outsmartthesystem

    DC - One of the things that convinces Jehovah’s Witnesses that religious groups like the Branch Davidians and The People’s Temple did not have God’s backing is because the men who were their leaders demanded unquestioning trust and submission to their directions. Witnesses have no difficulty seeing that fact. But they are unable to see that they are doing the very same thing when they give their unquestioning trust and submission to “God’s organization.”As an ex-Jehovah’s Witness Cameron cannot truly say what “convinces Jehovah’s Witnesses that …the Branch Davidians and The People’s Temple did not have God’s backing.” I can assure you, it is not merely because “their leaders demanded unquestioning trust and submission to their directions.” Primarily, if their belief system wasn’t based on the Bible truths then it is obvious they didn’t have “God’s backing.” Secondly, they formed in the 1930’s and 50’s, meaning that they would have missed the ‘Parousia’ of Christ and therefore, couldn’t have even been inspected in 1918-9. They were not preaching the Good News of the Kingdom of God and were not feeding Christ’s other sheep. These points brought up are just some of the Biblical requirements showing who would have “God’s backing” and approval.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit