Another Point Against Disfellowshipping (Even the WT can't deny)

by arko_n9ne 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • arko_n9ne
    arko_n9ne

    I have been shifting some ideas around and the threat of disfellowshipping may actually help me in this instance. If you've read my other posts, you know why it is I'm on here. And you know that I am adamant.

    But in the research of disfellowship, I've tried thinking of good, alternate arguments or points of reasoning before pressing the red button. I saw on another post called 11 Things the Bible Bans, But You Do Anyway by IamPresence2012:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/220669/1/11-Things-The-Bible-Bans-But-You-Do-Anyway

    As I read them, it made me energetic to know that more than 5 million or more of the R&F JWs probably do most of these on any given day. But my common sense hit me and the argument came clear "When Jesus set up the new covenant, the new law, he did away with the old." It got me thinking hard because I know that Jesus doesn't directly deal with the 10 Commandments, so I had to research them. The first that came to mind was "thou shall not kill (murder)."

    Jesus didn't deal with killing, but he spoke of murder. But his sense of what made a person a murderer was broader than most.

    1 John 3:15 (NIV) "Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
    1 John 3:15 (NWT)(So we know it's not a miscommunication) "Everyone who hates his brother is a manslayer, and you no that no manslayer has everlasting life remaining in him."

    In the book What Does The Bible Really Teach, Chapter 13, Paragraph 6:

    "Having respect for life includes having the right view of fellow humans. The Bible says: 'Everyone who hates his brother is a manslayer, and you know that no manslayer has everlasting life remaining in him.' (1 John 3:15) If we want everlasting life, we need to root out of our heart any hatred for our fellowman, because hatred is the root cause of most violence."

    The Watchtower page for this article is listed here: http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_13.htm (for any who feel I may have misquoted or misspelled something for my own gains).

    Jesus spoke again on hating a brother in 1 John 4:20: (NWT) "If anyone makes the statement 'I love God,' and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen."

    And again in Matthew 5:44 (NWT): "However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU.

    Clearly, in the new law with the new covenant, Jesus wants us to love one another, going so far as to call it murder for even being contemptuous toward each other. In the April 15 2012 Watchtower, as it's been referenced, page 12 I believe, where is the love? They are instructing many to bring misery, shame, and loneliness to their "fellowman." To cast away and view their brother with disdain.

    We are all aware (and if not, welcome to the war) of the November 1993 Watchtower that states: "True Christians share Jehovah's feelings toward such apostates; they are not curious about apostate ideas. On the contrary, they 'feel a loathing' toward those who have made themselves God's enemies, but they leave it to Jehovah to execute vengeance." (thanks jwfacts)

    Or the 1992 July Watchtower that states: "The obligation to hate lawlessness also applies to all activity by apostates. Our attitude toward apostates should be that of David, who declared: "Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you." (again, thanks jwfacts)

    Where is this Christian love we hear so much about? When one chooses to leave the congregation, or is forced out, why does this Christian love that Jesus spoke so much not appear in Jehovah's spirit-driven Organization? Why do they go against the decree of Jesus (who spoke for God) to love your enemy and pray for them?

    Even if they do wrong to you (expose for fallacies, misquotes, inaccuracies, etc.), love them. Even if they condemn your God (a handful of old men in Brooklyn), pray for them. Even if they question your beliefs (with evidence starting from the mid to late 1800's, and find contradictory statements made a year apart as recent as 2009), do good to them.

    Yet none of this happens. Encouraged hate and loathing. Encouraged pyschological abuse toward dissenters. But no agape (a word every JW was using in 2009).

  • FatFreek 2005
    FatFreek 2005

    Hi Arko,

    I think most all on this board will agree with what you've said. The hatred of JW's toward the ExJWs appears to be increasing especially when it's encouraged out of those recent pages of Watchtower. It used to be -- at least what I remember from years ago -- that we were to hate the wrongdoing -- not the wrongdoer.

    Len

  • Listener
    Listener

    You have some very good points there, particularly the articles that incite JWs to loathe apostates. If this is pointed out to them they will probably twist this to say that you are not actually an apostate in the true sense of the word.

    They will also say that they do not hate those that are disfellowshipped but their idea of shunning has a two fold purpose, to keep the congregation clean and as a disciplinary measure in order that the wrongdoer comes to see their error. They have said that their shunning is a form of love.

    I agree with Fatfreek, they will say that they do not hate the wrongdoer, just the sins they are committing.

    It will be up to the elders as to whether they accept the hardline that the GB is advocating or show more compassion and are truer to Jesus' example. It is more likely they will uphold the latter and make excuses for any articles that you present by twisting them with a different meaning.

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    Great insight arko! I feel the same way.

    And Paul even knew excessive punishment would leave one so sad and leave an entry way for Satan...

    2 Corinthians 2
    1 For I made up my mind not to make you another painful visit. 2 For if I cause you pain, who is there to make me glad but the one whom I have pained? 3 And I wrote as I did, so that when I came I might not suffer pain from those who should have made me rejoice, for I felt sure of all of you, that my joy would be the joy of you all. 4 For I wrote you out of much affliction and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to cause you pain but to let you know the abundant love that I have for you. 5 But if any one has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure--not to put it too severely--to you all. 6 For such a one this punishment by the majority is enough; 7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. 10 Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, 11 to keep Satan from gaining the advantage over us; for we are not ignorant of his designs

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Just remind me please ..... what is the scriptural precedent for Elders meeting in secret to judge the guilt, innocence or repentance of a member of the congregation??

  • iarts
    iarts

    marked

  • freydo
    freydo

    "A woman was beheaded Monday in Saudi Arabia, this according to the kingdom's Interior Ministry.

    Updated Dec 16, 2011 2:51 AM ET

    Her crime was sorcery which, according to Amnesty International, could mean actual practicing of witchcraft or worshipping a non-approved god or simply uttering a political statement. The country's laws are not exactly written down, their trials not public, their protections for the accused lacking, their options for recourse minuscule......"

    http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/Jerry-Sandusky-Joe-Amendola-shouldnt-say-another-word-until-court-121411

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/220489/1/Islam-and-JW

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/217981/1/WTS-meet-Penn-State-Penn-State-meet-WTS#4225542

  • freydo
    freydo

    "...The country's laws are not exactly written down, their trials not public, their protections for the accused lacking, their options for recourse minuscule......"

    And the masses have no choice but to go along with the mythology, or face the consequences of the unwritten laws of the legal apparatus for uttering a wrong political statement, that the men behind the curtain are wrong. Whether it's Penn State, Islam or the wtbt$, lies and cover-ups of the lies based upon false loyalty are SOP in all human organizations. And every once in a while we get a glimpse of the awful truth that we have deluded ourselves into not believing. Whether it's children being raped, women being beheaded or brethren being df'd.

  • hotspur
    hotspur

    You're forgetting in JW'dom - Apostasy = grieving Holy Spirit.... that trumps everything!

    No hope... no forgiveness... not a single ounce of humanity

  • exjehovah
    exjehovah

    I totally agree with your premise; but honestly I think it will turn on deaf ears. I think the best thing to do is to find a forum in the media to write open letters to the Watchtower society. This is what I have thought about doing. I recently came back from a funeral and although it wasn't as terrible as I thought it would be, I only interacted with them for the "Memorial" and then we went our separate ways. If I hadn't armed myself with a group of my own friends, some of whom I have been friends with for upwards of 20 years, it probably would have turned out differently.

    I honestly think the more we show the hypocrisy in the public, the more their belief will be challenged by others. I know we can't change everyone's mind, but there are so many people that are low hanging fruit that just need to have their cult practices shown in a concrete way...

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