Frustration of Discussion

by Marvin Shilmer 20 Replies latest jw friends

  • Sam Beli
    Sam Beli

    Marvin, thank you for your reply. You said:

    “If I was overtaken by poor health or injury and required some form of blood to survive then I would okay it if asked. If HLC members were at my bedside I would do something very simple—tell them to leave.”

    Of course you would and the HLC probably would honor the request. However, many JWs will not have the confidence under such circumstances to make such a request and even more unfortunately, they may trust the HLC member more than their own physician, thinking that the “Society” knows more about blood and healthcare than does their own physician! In my experience, even if the HLC member does leave he will be back soon to find out what decision was made and to learn how “things” are going.

    When hospitalized a while back in one of the US’s major medical centers, in critical condition, I learned that the HLC member that usually covered that center was nick-named “the Gestapo” by the medical staff. That should tell you something about how he conducted his official business there.

    “If necessary I would remind the doctor that I expect his and the facility’s confidentiality, and in fact demand it.”

    Demanding confidentiality is usually unnecessary; at most a gentle reminder is all that is required, unless a JW happens to work in that facility and he/she has access to your records. My experience has been that the medical staff offers confidentiality (my doc volunteered that if anyone divulged my record he would personally see to it that that person was fired).

    “Usually having HLC members asserting themselves is rare. So I really don’t foresee a problem there.”

    My experience has been different. My wife had to stand guard at the door to keep the HLC and other JWs working at the facility away. When one is in an ICU it is less difficult to keep unwanted visitors away, but on general floors most visitors can come and go as they please.

    “Let’s just say, though, that a HLC member did somehow assert himself or otherwise found I had accepted some forbidden form of blood. To hell with him! At least I have the benefit of acting according to my conscience and, hopefully, I will live, which is better than the alternative without congregational action. My scriptural belief is that God knows my sincerity, and that I am acting out of a clean conscience before him. How could He possibly demand more?[!]”

    As long as one is not concerned about family ties being broken your approach is fine, but for some it is not that clear cut, is it?

    “As you can see, my convictions are firm here to the point of not having any qualms about just what my Christian conscience would demand, so my personal circumstance is not too troublesome for me. But you latter inquiry is a critical one.”

    “You inquired, “I’d be interested in knowing how you advise JWs who know the “truth’ about the blood issue in these circumstances.”

    “Whether they know the truth about the blood issue or not, if I am faced with a publisher dying over the issue then I will explain to them that there is no discernable scriptural prohibition that should lead them to feel that dying is better than accepting life-saving blood therapy for Christians. If they want to know the details I will tell them, starting with the June 15, 2000 Watchtower! Otherwise my standard recommendation is that they do what is best for their health and there is no need in me or any other JW being present to impose our conscience on them. I advise that they talk with their doctor about the matter and then keep whatever treatment they decide upon where it should stay, between them and their doctor. I then head to the door and tell the doctor to take good care of my friend! I also tell the doctor if there is ANYTHING he thinks I can do to help save a life to let me know. I act accordingly.”

    Good for you! Isn’t it too bad that the GB does not refrain from attempting to impose its conscience on all JWs. If they kept their weak consciences to themselves your words and the patients actions would not have to be cloaked in such guarded language.

    “I will add one further point of fact.”

    “Based on The Watchtower of June 15, 2000, I would point out to an ailing publisher that the WTS’ doctrinal position is that EVERY SINGLE BIT of blood is acceptable as long as it is broken down enough. I would then emphasize, “This should TELL YOU SOMETHING about how to best proceed.”

    Unfortunately most JWs, including most elders, do not see that point when they read that QFR. Most see little if any change in the blood policy. The WTS does not write these articles in plain spoken language, nor do they point out the changes from previous positions. The plan is to obfuscate their message and unfortunately it works on most JWs.

  • TMS
    TMS

    words from Sam Beli:

    The WTS does not write these articles in plain spoken language, nor do they point out the changes from previous positions.

    very true.

    TMS

  • waiting
    waiting

    Howdy Marvin,

    Shamefully, I printed out your post - and that's as far as it got.....my kitchen counter. *sigh* - it's pretty weather here, and my garden looks pretty damned weedy.

    However! My husband picked it up tonight - and is duly impressed with your discussion.

    Thank you - and I promise to made amends. Besides, he read aloud a good portion of it - whether I wanted to hear it or not.

    waiting

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    I must agree with the comment here of 2SYN

    It's a sick Society, and the sad fact is that it is going to continue ruining it's blind followers' lives for possibly decades or maybe even (gasp) centuries to come.

    BTW 2SYN, I don't think we've 'spoken', so may I welcome you you at this belated stage. Anyway, I was very interested in Marvin's exchange. I always am interested in Marvin's posts. (Thanks again Marvin!) But I can't help feeling in all this, that "if the wheel's broken, don't fix it".

    Mrs Ozzie and I have many relatives active in the Borg, as we once were, and agree that there are many "very well meaning and peaceful people. JWs are both, and would be more so if not for all this unavoidable warring over unsound and needless doctrine". We grieve for them, knowing how much better their lives would be if they gained freedom. The reality is that the WTS binds its followers with procedures that are both harsh and controlling. The judicial procedures which occupy the minds of elders constantly are both unscriptural and un-Christian, as well as being an abomination on the Christian faith. Simply reading the experiences here posted on this board reveals that.

    We may be interested in seeing justice for the R&F and for those abused by the WTS system but, in the long run, this will never give them the freedom that they deserve.

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

    - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress

  • Sam Beli
    Sam Beli

    bttt

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    marvin
    your blood doctrine analogy is intriguing. Have you read the letters posted a while back by Mr. Jensen (do I have right name?) If not he shares some good points you'd agree with. Letters are complete with replies from Brooklyn.

    Maybe someone remembers the thread, I've been looking for it, and could post.

  • Sam Beli
    Sam Beli

    bttt

    Sam Beli

    I have seen all the works which have been done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and striving after wind. What is crooked cannot be straightened and what is lacking cannot be counted. Solomon

  • ros
    ros

    Whew! I thought I must have missed something along the line way back on this one. I've even been afraid to ask where my confusion was.

    Then I noticed it!
    A slight difference of spelling:
    Ron Rhoades
    vs.
    Ron Rhodes

    Sheesh! Had me wondering ... (Ron Rhodes the exJW a JW?) LOL!! Whew! <fanning> ... Glad I finally noticed that little difference in the spelling of the names.

    Interesting article, Marvin. Thanks for the links.

    Blessings,
    Ros

  • Beans
    Beans

    http://www.Quotes.JehovahsWitnesses.com/

    Enjoy brothers,much spiritual food for thought!

    Beans

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    Nice Post Marvin I actually enjoyed reading ALL of it.
    I'm saving this one to use as reference material.
    plmkrzy

    "The fellow that agrees with everything you say is either a fool or he is getting ready to skin you."
    - Kin Hubbard

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit