How long have you been divorced? I would put money on them DF'ing you if you confessed to adultery, despite their assurances otherwise. It's kind of you to consider giving your ex wife the freedom to remarry, but you should also consider the cost to yourself if you did get DFed over it.
Your advice please on "Scriptual Divorce"
by karter 35 Replies latest jw friends
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harleybear
Don't do it. If your EX wants a scriptual divorce the burden of proof should be on her. I agree you are being nice to consider granting it but it does not matter how much time passes, those guys have long memories.
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JRK
Hey karter,
It depends on what you want. If you "did the deed" and want to let her off the hook, send them their f'ing letter. If she is a bitch and you want to fuck her over for eternity, don't.
Do you give a shit about being shunned? Don't do it. If you could care less, give her what she wants.
It really doesn't matter to you now, go with your gut. Just give them a signed letter if you choose to, and tell them to F off if they want to meet you.
JK
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JRK
And karter, you damned well know she has committed the nasty in 12 years, she is just looking for a clean way out.
JK
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JRK
And one last thing,
They will DF you in a heartbeat if you give them a letter.
JK
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talesin
No, they won't put it in writing, and Yes, they will come after you and won't even have to have a JC since you are admitting in writing that you committed a DF offence. What JRK said.
tal
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djeggnog
@karter:
My EX and i have a legal divorce.
She asked me to write a letter to the B.O.E so she can get a [Scriptural] divorce.
She said she had spoken to the C.O.B.E [and] they would take no action against me as i haven't been to a meeting in about 12 years.
My reply "OK Get him to put that in writing"
You have a legal divorce, so what need would there be for a letter from you to this effect? Your ex-wife has no need to report to the BOEs of the change in your legal marital status. It's evident that your wife wants to be scripturally free to remarry, but she believes that absent her providing to the elders proof of your infidelity to her, she is not scripturally free to remarry. It seems you want to help your wife by writing a letter, but that you don't want to out yourself as an adulterer, because it seems to her that you incriminating yourself to be the only way she would be obtain a scriptural divorce, except that the elders should not expect the divorcer to incriminate himself, either in person or by his writing to them a letter to this effect, and, as I understand it, you have already obtained a legal divorce. The unscriptural legal divorce obtained by the divorcer is, in effect, a legal separation for all intents and purposes, which means that the divorcer and the divorcee could remarry and resume their marriage at any time since the divorce wasn't obtained on scriptural grounds, but you and your wife are both wrong here.
While it's true that absent proof of your infidelity, your wife would not be scripturally free to remarry, information provided by your wife to the elders of your infidelity to her after your legal divorce -- e.g., that you're living with another woman -- is proof and effectively establishes her freedom to remarry, for adultery on the part of the divorcer (you) validates the divorce already obtained, thus freeing the divorcee (your wife) to remarry.
The elders aren't authorized to be tracking down evidence supplied to them by a husband or a wife that would validate a report made by the innocent party of the guilty party's adultery by arranging with the innocent party to stand vigil over night for the emergence of the guilty party from the third party's home the following morning, and it would be overkill for the innocent party to be asked by the elders to present to them pictures taken of the guilty party with the third party.
If the elders should be inclined to silence whisperers in the congregation over their concern that your wife, thought by them to be married, is perhaps engaging in something immoral by dating someone else, they might simply put all such concerns to rest by saying, "I believe she's scripturally divorced, but you can ask her 'what's up' if for some reason you want to be sure."
So do you think they will put that in writing?
No, and what good would this do anyway? First, your wife asked you to write a letter to the body of elders, but such a letter would only implicate you for it would constitute an admission of intentional wrongdoing on your part sans repentance. As I indicated above, the Bible doesn't give the power of absolution to the elders nor does it give to them the power to give a pass to anyone called a "brother" that admits to being a fornicator by way of a letter so as to make his wife scripturally free to remarry. Perhaps if we were talking about the Pharisees, who are described at Luke 16:14 as being "money lovers," something along the lines suggested by your question here might be worked out, but such a letter would be reprehensible and make these elders complicit in wrongdoing. In fact, they would all of them have to be deleted and replaced at the earliest opportunity since overseers must be irreprehensible.
And would they take action if i did write the letter [giving] her a [scriptural] divorce?
Against you? You should expect to be disfellowshipped were you to write such a letter. There is already in place a legal divorce on unscriptural grounds, so a scriptural divorce isn't even possible. Armed with such a letter, I know that I'd vote to disfellowship, but if no one on the judicial committee seconded my vote, you would then not be disfellowshipped, but such an outcome would be called in some circles a Hail Mary. Why in the world are you living in fear of the elders? You must work out your own salvation; the elders cannot vouch for you and their lives can redeem no one.
Many of the people here on JWN quake in fear of men and that is why I would opine that very few people on here have ever known Jehovah. The Pharaoh of Egypt refused to obey Jehovah's voice, because, as he said, "I do not know Jehovah at all." An apostate is someone that has come to know Jehovah, but has abandoned true worship, but like the Pharaoh, if one does not know Jehovah, it isn't possible to rebel against God. Fear Jehovah God and give him glory, and do not tremble at mere men. Consider doing this post-haste, so that you will not be among those swept away in the error of those law-defying people that "do not know God." (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
Take a moment to read all of the responses that you received in this thread and then, when you compare the "advice" you received against this response, you should quickly realize that most of the advice you received here was rooted in FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) and exacerbated by statements like, "If your EX wants a [scriptural] divorce the burden of proof should be on her...," when she not only can't get one of those, but she doesn't need one with a legal divorce already in place. Since what your wife wants is to be scripturally free to remarry, she need only inform the elders of your infidelity today as of whenever it was that it occurred since the elders play an important role in protecting the congregation and keeping it clean, after which she would then be free to remarry today. As to whether you should "write the letter," I concur with @palmtree67's response: "Don't do it."
@djeggnog
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cantleave
Eggnogt - has anyone ever told you you are an idiot? Well, if not, Djeggnog - You are an idiot.
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ScenicViewer
Djeggnog said,
"Since what your wife wants is to be scripturally free to remarry, she need only inform the elders of your infidelity today...she would then be free to remarry today."
I don't quite follow this. Where would the second witness be? For that matter where is the first witness?
I'm unclear whether Karter has explicitly admitted infidelity to his ex. If he has, is that enough to negate the 2 witness rule? Would it now come down to her word that he admitted infidelity, and the elders would accept that as enough evidence?
If so, why would the elders require a letter in the first place? (Unless the letter was stictly her idea, with no mention of it from the elders. The post doesn't make it clear whether the elders asked for it).
In any case, Karter should not submit a letter admitting anything. His request that he be given a letter from the elders guaranteeing they will not disfellowship is reasonable. Of course they will not comply, but neither should Karter comply with a letter to them. Without getting a letter, I would not give a letter. It it's a stalemate, then so be it.
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OnTheWayOut
Even if they gave you a letter agreeing not to pursue a DF if you provided her a letter of confession, that doesn't stop a C.O. or another elder from deciding they should not have provided a letter and that they MUST exert their authority in a judicial matter.
This is a cult. There is no telling what they do. I highly recommend you do not put anything in writing for her.
You want to help your ex? Tell her it's a frigging cult and she should remarry if she wants to, but you won't play their games. Tell her that she is free to admit to having fornicated in all the time since her divorce and that you will say that, if she admits to that, you do not wish to reconcile. It's her cult and she can follow the rules if she wants to.