Seven Times Do Not Equal 2,520 Days

by DT 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • DT
    DT

    How long is seven times? It's important to note that the Bible doesn't say. Jehovah's witnesses have calculated that it comes to 2,520 days. They reason that the Bible indicates that a certain time period of three and have times was identified as 1,260 days. They then double this to get 2,520 days without paying attention to how the ancient calender worked.

    The problem is that three and a half times could be equal to either 1,260 days or 1,290 days depending on whether there is a leap month of thirty days added to keep their times in sync with the seasons. Indeed, both time periods are featured prominently in the Bible. Seven times can be the result of 1,260 days added to 1,290 days for a total of 2,550 days, but it cannot be 2,520 days since this differs from seven years (365 1/4 days x 7 or 2556.75 days) by more than one thirty day month. An extra month would have to be added at some point.

    A JW might object that this kind of nitpicky argument isn't important. They might reason that their prophecy pointing to 1914 after seven prophetic times of 2,520 years has a certain simplicity to it and that God never intended for his servants to be distracted by these kinds of details.

    This argument is flawed because they claim that this same prophecy had a first fulfillment when Nebuchadnezzar became insane for seven times. Assuming this actually happened as prophesied, then this would have literally happened for a specific number of days. You can only apply the day for a year rule after you learn the number of days involved in the first fulfillment.

    It could not have been 2,520 days. Daniel 4:32 says, "Vegetation they will give even to you to eat just like bulls, and seven times themselves will pass over you" At least one of those times would have had to have an extra leap month. If the insanity ended after only 2,520 days, the final time would not have passed over and the prophecy would have failed.

    It should also be noted that a period of seven times could also have two leap months for a total of 2,580 days. Daniel doesn't specify the number of days. In other places in the Bible, the exact number of days is specified when there is possible ambiguity and when the exact number is important. Here it isn't. It's reasonable to conclude that it's not mentioned because it's not important. There is nothing to indicate that this prophesy was meant to have a second fulfillment. Otherwise, it would have been important to specify the exact number of days involved so the second fulfillment could be calculated.

  • xelder
    xelder

    So....they missed 20 years already (607 to 587) Now here is at least 30 more. So...the the 1914 nonsense should be 1964 I guess. DT, I always knew you were GB material. j/k (what an insult...sorry)

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    When you learn what happened with C.T. Russell, the math was done backwards from the solution of 1914. It had to work out because that was the determined date (after William Miller's Oct. 22, 1844 failed and C. T. Russell was born to later believe Jonas Wendell's teaching that the real time of the second coming was 1873 or 1874, then to believe Nelson Barbour that the second coming was to come in April 1878).

    I think by the time of 1878's failing, Russell figured out that date-setting kept him going in this religion he was establishing.

    It's a shame World War One started in 1914. Jehovah's Witnesses may never have come to be if that were the case.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Even if Seven Times did equal 2,520 days, what evidence supports the idea that the Book of Daniel has anything to do with the Book of Luke?

  • Ding
    Ding
    Even if Seven Times did equal 2,520 days, what evidence supports the idea that the Book of Daniel has anything to do with the Book of Luke?

    Just proves how grateful we should be that we have the faithful and discreet slave to explain these things to us!

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Nice argument and observation. People interpret things their own way to get their own results, everyone is entitled to do that, including you. But here's what I find a bit inconsistent in your argument.

    1. First of all, the Jews maintained a lunar-solar calendar, one that adjusted the lunar months to the lunar year, thus the intercalary month. So per JWs, the months used for calculating years was a round-off month of 30 days each when then became a year of 1260. That formula is used to calculate the years but when it is literally played out, it is played out in lunar-solar years.

    2. The other thing is that we know lunar months are 29 days plus some minutes. Some lunar months are 29 days and some 30 days. But when you apply exactly 30 days to each month, as in the case of the 1260 days, you are going to get a figurative year of 360 days, which is slightly shorter than the actual lunar year, but slightly shorter than the solar year of 365.25 years. Because of the difference between lunar and solar, a standard concept of 30 days per month and 360 days per year was used to calculating prophetic periods. But when they played out, they played out per the standard Jewish lunar-solar calendar. That's the WTS' interpretation of this. But sometimes, of course, when you are speaking of the 3.5 times, it can be exchanged for the 1290 days as well. So the actual fulfillment of the applied prophecy would determine if 3.5 times was to be 1290 days or 1260 days.

    3. But there is one more thing to consider as well, historically. The Egyptians used a 30-day month. All their months were 30 days each, making their year some 360 days long. But the Egyptians also coordinated this to the solar year by adding 5 days to the end of the year. This lends to the presumption that whlie the 30-day month was more symbolic, there's the context that even that 360-day year would be adjusted every year to match solar years, so that the calculation of the total years would be played out in the natural solar year, whether you use the Egyptian calendar or the Jewish lunar-solar calendar.

    How fulfilled? One interpretation.

    As we can see, there are various ways to interpret and apply these "7 times"! The question is, how it the Bible itself applying it? Which version of the 1260 days is being used? A very strict application or is it adjusted to the lunar-solar calendar used by the Jews? Good question. But we do have one other factor to consider and that is whether one of these applications fits the fulfilled prophecy.

    So the big question is whether "7 times" is applied to the lunar-solar year or to a lesser period? We can answer that by the fulfilled prophecy. That's because, as applied, the 2520 years, solar or lunar, is the gap between the fall of Jerusalem and the 2nd coming. But you have to have the correct dates and being willing to accept reality, which is the manipulation of the timeline by the pagans. Fortunately, we have the VAT4956 which dates year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar to 511 BCE based on the original timeline. If that's the case, then year 19 falls in 529 BCE as the true year for the fall of Jerusalem. In another prophecy, the messiah must fulfill "1335 days" which is 45 days after the end of 1290 days. The 1290 days ends Jewish exile and sees them returning to their homeland. This occurred on November 30, 1947 when the "Partition Agreement" went into effect. When this is applied to the 1290 days, the messiah would arrive 45 years later in 1992.

    So using ancient astronomy combined with modern fulfillment, we can test how many years and what type of years fall between 1992 and 529 BCE to determine the correct fufillment and interpretation of "2520 years." As you will observe, there is exactly 2520 lunar-solar years between 529 BCE and 1992. So, "apparently" after using the 30-day month, 360-day year, and 2520-day 7-year period to calculate the years in the prpohecy, when they are played out, they are adjusted to lunar solar years. Keeping in mind, 360-day years are slightly longer than the 12-month lunar year and slightly shorter than the 365-day solar year.

    Even so, everyone still has to make up their own minds about this. The above is just one way the prophecy does get fulfilled and works out with the numbers. So if you come up with a fulfillment using another calculation, that's your choice. However, at this point, because of the above, there can be no legitimate claim this "2520 year" prophecy was not fulfilled nor can be fulfilled. Regarding Nebuchadnezzar, the presumption is that he spent 7 lunar-solar years away from his throne, that is, the standard Jewish year though represented as "7 times."

    In the Bible, "times" like a "day" can be various lengths, including a 24-hour day, a year, a 1000 years, or 7000 years (creative day). So the interpretation and fulfillment will determine just what length a "time" is. A "time" is any length that fits the fulfillment.

    You ask "Do seven times equal 2520 days?" Well it depends on your interpretation of what a "time" is, and that is a flexible term, obviously.

    It's a complex topic and it is understandable why it can be confusing. I'm happy I worked out my own interpretation based on my own chronology, so it works for me. But it may not for others, understandably. I'm an "anointed" JW.

    LS

  • sir82
    sir82
    I'm an "anointed" JW.

    What the hey?

    You used to claim to be Jesus H. Christ in the flesh!

    Talk about a demotion.....

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    In general, I believe the WTS in this case has an adequate explanation for assigning "2520 days" to "7 times" because of the specific statement reference that 3.5 times is 1260 days. That's very fundamental. How that is applied in fulfillment to actual solar years or some specialized year is a matter of observation.

    Additionally, I believe there is adequate Biblical support for applying the conversion of the days to years because of Ezekiel 4:6 which gives us the formula of "a day for a year."

    So I agree with the WTS in both the interpretation and relative application of this prophecy. The only difference is that I have my own date for the fall of Jerusalem in 529 BCE, whereas the WTS uses 607 BCE. Otherwise, everything is the same. Thus:

    WTS: 2520 - 607 = 1913 +1 = 1914

    MINE: 2520 - 529 = 1991 +1 = 1992

    But now that I'm thinking about it. I'm wondering if this is based on the Egyptian year. Perhaps they chose to express this in terms of the Egytian year for simplicity's sake. The Egyptian months are 30 days and each year 360 days, to which they added the extra 5 days at the end of the year. So even with the Egyptian year calculation based on the 30-day month, the presumption is that this would be adjusted to the solar year by adding 5 days to each year so that you are calculating and counting normal solar years, rather than some complex specialized year.

    Thus in passing, the "70 weeks" also was fulfilled by lunar-solar years. The WTS dates the beginning of the "70 weeks" prophecy in 455 BCE based on 483 solar years back from 29 CE, the year of Jesus' baptism. That works out perfectly per the VAT4956, which we can use to determine the original Neo-Babylonian timeline, a timeline that obviously does not match the Biblical Neo-Babylonian period. Using 511 BCE for year 37, we can date year 23 to 525 BCE, the year of the last deportation. That means 70 years later the 1st of Cyrus would fall in 525 BCE. If the 483 years of the 69 weeks are actual lunar-solar years, then we should have seen the appearance of the messiah in 29 CE, which we do. So apparently, however, calculated, the "applied" chronology is a reference to the usual, standard solar year, whether Egyptian where you add 5 days to the 360 days, or you use the Jewish lunar-solar year where they add an intercalary month every 2-3 years over 19 years to keep up with the solar year.

    LS

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    When I actually crackd open my boxed set of studies in the scriptures for the first time, it didn't take me long to determine what the 2520 days or the times or 606 oR 5647 inches were all about: baseless numerology created by a bunch of nutters.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Sir82:

    What the hey?

    You used to claim to be Jesus H. Christ in the flesh!

    Talk about a demotion.....

    Aha! Nice observation S82! I was one of the anointed before I became used to embody the physical Christ at the second coming. If you will notice the vision in Revelation, the Christ is born from the woman who is in the earth, meaning the Christ comes from among the anointed elect.

    I was reinstated after a long time being out around 1989, the beginning of the 70th week. It was too painful to do to the local congregation so I became inactive until I moved far away from anyone who knew me and my past. I grew up in the Compton Area, an inner city suburb of L.A. I moved up to Duarte, California near the San Gabriel mountains. Once there I decided to become active again and showed up at the local Kingdom Hall at the Memorial. I knew the routine. The brothers greet all strangers and ask what is going on. I told them I was inactive but wanted to come back and so they immediately assigned someone to study with me. But by the summer a lot of things started to come to my attention, things that the WTS had wrong and then holy spirit guided me to my anointing. It was the typical anointing where they claim suddenly passages in the Bible seem to speak directly to you, etc.

    Then other things guided by holy spirit started happening and I considered myself a special "prophet" and so did the JIOR members who contacted me and initiated me into the ways of the JIOR one day out in service. They all knew who I was before I did. Then I was moved to write the WTS about some of this false teachings and while writing the letter the next thing I knew, Jehovah was "disfellowshipping" them from his heavenly organization and labeling them the "evil slave" and the "man of lawlessness." To show repentance, they were given a couple of false doctrines to correct. Of course, they have stubbornly refused. I wrote the letter as "the watchman" who is Jesus Christ, which I did not know at the time. That was on November 10, 1992.

    Then, as this special prophet, I was led to believe there was a need to hide me out to continue my research and exposure of the WTS. So jumping into dumpsters was part of that plan to secretly get me out of the city to some secluded place. But it turned out I was to become Jesus Christ. Now I had seen Jesus Christ earlier, so it didn't dawn on me that I was any more than a special prophet gaining this special information.

    Then when I climbed into that final dumpster in hopes of escaping whomever was following me, at the time the CIA agents from the UN, but I didn't know that then, I became the messiah. Hard to believe but there all the details were right there in scripture connected to the prodigal son becoming the messiah, which is only possible with an imperfect person's life. That life of the "prodigal son" was actually me and my deflection from the faith when I was dealing with my homosexuality.

    Anyway, I still consider myself an "anointed JW" in spite of becoming the messiah later. I mentioned that to suggest I have as much insight via holy spirit as the WTS claims to have, only they are in darkness now.

    So, sorry, but I'm still the Christ at the moment. Of course, that implies my interpretation is also the "official" interpretation of the 2520 years.

    LS

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