by garbonzo 24 Replies latest watchtower bible
The prophecy clearly states that the destruction of Jerusuelem will be 70 years before the cast to rebuild. Yet we know the destruction of Jerusuelem was not 70 years before, it was at 586 BCE, not 607 BCE. So this here is a clear contradiction between secular evidence and the Bible.
Atheists = Win.
I don't dwell to much on the specifics of this date. Too much history and numbers for me. What I focus on is the Society's dishonest methods of upholding that date. No one should have to resort to misquoting all of your sources in order to prove a point....at least not if your claim has any real truth or legitimacy to it. That's just me anyway :)
Hmmm...I thought it was that there would be 70 years of servitude, but I'm too lazy to look it up. I'm sure plenty of 607-587 experts will set us straight. I hardly think for most Christians it matters much, and for JWs they don't care much either.
As far as arguments against the bible God, stories about that crazy cat Lot and Numbers chapter 31 do it for me...
Only the Society's interpretation is proven false. The Bible clearly shows Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/586 BC and that the 70 years were from 609 BC to 539 BC, the period of Babylonian Dominance. On this point, the Bible is fully in agreement with the secular evidence.
Even if not, proving or disproving the literalness of certain parts of the Bible does not equate to proving there is or is not a Transcendental Being, and if so, the nature of that One. Why does anyone need to win? If you are secure in your philosophy in life and are free to express it, you have won. That way everybody wins.
No!! The bible is false because it is a just a book, a book containing some history and lot more myth, fairy tale and downright ignorant BS.
Here are some personal notes I wrote up. Keep in mind, this is more from a pro-Bible, theistic viewpoint. Also, it was written from the POV of somebody familar with the Society's arguements for 607. Therefore, it is not ALL inclusive by any means.
My notes:
According to what we've been taught, the 70 years ended in 537 BCE when the Jews returned to Jerusalem--2 years after 539 BCE, when Cyrus overtook Babylon. Therefore, if the 70 years period is for the destruction of Jerusalem and Exile at Babylon:
537 BCE - 70 years = 607 BCE.
Is this true Biblically?
Jeremiah 25:12, says "And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite."
When was the king of Babylon called into account? Daniel 9:26-28 says, "ME´NE, God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and has finished it. TE´KEL, you have been weighed in the balances and have been found deficient. PE´RES, your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and the Persians."
So the ending point of the 70 years is 539 BCE.
539 BCE - 70 years = 609 BCE
What happened in 609 BCE? "The Babylonians defeat the Assyrian army of Ashur-uballit II and capture Harran. Ashur-uballit, the last Assyrian king, disappears from history." So logically the 70 year period that Jeremiah foretells is the period of Babylon's Dominance of the region and the lands roundabout, from the time Assyria's last stronghold was captured, until Babylon fell to Cyrus.
In the NWT, Jeremiah 29:10 says: “For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon I shall turn my attention to YOU people, and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place.’
However, other modern translations, like the ESV, says, “When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place."
Professor Ernst Jenni, a Hebrew scholar says, "The rendering in all modern commentaries and translations is “for Babel” (Babel as world power, not city or land); this is clear from the language as well as also from the context. By the “local meaning” a distinction is to be made between where? (in, at) and where to? (local directional “to, towards”). The basic meaning of l is with reference to, and with a following local specification it can be understood as local or local-directional only in certain adverbial expressions (e.g. Num. 11, 10 [Clines DCH IV, 481b] “at the entrance”, cf. Lamed pp. 256, 260, heading 8151)."
Therefore, the Jews did not serve AT Babylon 70 years, they were to be subservient and obedient to Babylon the world power (in essence there Superior Authority at the time) for 70 years.
Daniel 9:1 mentions the "desolations of Jerusalem" during the 70 years. During this time good king Josiah was killed, Egypt installed a puppet king, and then Babylon came and installed a puppet king, and when he rebelled, they installed another. Meanwhile the temple and city was looted. The surrounding land and crops were devastated by both Egyptian and Babylonian armies. There were at least 3 waves of deportation to Babylon. Finally, Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, after a two and a half year siege, and everyone went into Exile.
What is more, there is no Scriptural evidence that the Jews returned in 537 BC. Ezra 1:1 says, "And in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia…" And Ezra 3:1 says, "When the seventh month arrived the sons of Israel were in [their] cities. And the people began to gather themselves as one man to Jerusalem."
From Ezra's timeline, a plain reading would indicate that the first regnal year would be Nissan 538 BC, and therefore, they returned by the 7 th month, Tishri 538 BC. Therefore, the return does NOT seem to have been 537 BC…there is no scripture that indicates this.
20 years after the exile, Zechariah and Haggai raised up to stir the people to rebuild the temple which is still in ruins. Haggai was written in 520 BCE and the first wave of Jews had returned 18 years earlier.
Haggai 2:3 says, "‘Who is there among YOU that is remaining over who saw this house in its former glory? And how are YOU people seeing it now? Is it not, in comparison with that, as nothing in YOUR eyes?’"
If the temple were destroyed in 607 BCE, how old would Haggai's audience be that they would remember the temple in its glory days? If the temple was destroyed in 587/586, how old would the audience be? It is more plausible that Haggai is referencing 70-somethings, not 90-somethings.
Zechariah 7:1-5: 'Furthermore, it came about that in the fourth year of Da·ri´us the king the word of Jehovah occurred to Zech·a·ri´ah, on the fourth [day] of the ninth month, [that is,] in Chis´lev. And Beth´el proceeded to send Shar·e´zer and Re´gem-mel´ech and his men to soften the face of Jehovah, saying to the priests who belonged to the house of Jehovah of armies, and to the prophets, even saying: “Shall I weep in the fifth month, practicing an abstinence, the way I have done these O how many years?” And the word of Jehovah of armies continued to occur to me, saying: “Say to all the people of the land and to the priests, ‘When YOU fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth [month] and in the seventh [month], and this for seventy years, did YOU really fast to me, even me?'
The fourth year of Darius is 518 BC.
518 BC - 70 years = 588 BC (which leads us in the middle of Babylon's final two and a half year siege from 589-587 BC.)
This 70 years is therefore not the same as the 70 years of Babylon's Dominance.
Again, to confirm this Zechariah 1.
Verses 7, 8: On the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, that is, the month She´bat, in the second year of Da·ri´us, the word of Jehovah occurred to Zech·a·ri´ah the son of Ber·e·chi´ah the son of Id´do the prophet, saying:“I saw [in] the night, and, look! a man riding on a red horse, and he was standing still among the myrtle trees that were in the deep place; and behind him there were horses red, bright red, and white.”
Therefore this is 520 BC.
Verses 11, 12: And they proceeded to answer the angel of Jehovah who was standing among the myrtle trees and to say: “We have walked about in the earth, and, look! the whole earth is sitting still and having no disturbance.” So the angel of Jehovah answered and said: “O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years?”
520 BC - 70 years = 590 BC (the year before Babylon's final two and a half year siege)
In harmony with this, in Against Apion I , 21, Josephus says, " This statement is both correct and in accordance with our books [that is, the Holy Scriptures]. For in the latter it is recorded that Nabochodonosor in the eighteenth year of his reign devastated our temple, that for fifty years it ceased to exist, that in the second year of Cyrus the foundations were laid, and lastly that in the second year of the reign of Darius it was completed."
Therefore, we find two competing interpretations of the 70 Years of Jeremiah.
(1) From 607 BC to 537 BC (held to be regarding the Jewish Exile at Babylon)
(2) From 609 BC to 539 BC (held to be regarding Babylon's period of Dominance)
To resolve between these interpretations, the question becomes: Which interpretation does the archeological and historical evidence support?
A very good resource on the subject is 'The Gentle Times Reconsidered' by Carl Olof Jonson.
Actually the bible can prove that the year 586 BCE. is correct, together with archaeological evidence.
The date deceivingly calculated by the Watchtower charlatans 607 BCE. is most definitely wrong.
As well the unscriptural dating method used by the WTS. Corporation to proclaim Jesus took his place
at his kingdom in heaven. (1914)
Jesus said in his own words no one shall the time of his return, he didn't say I will provide a dating calculation
for my Faithful Discrete Slave to know of my return..
Vile corruption can be found in most religions, its just that its a little easier when looking closely at religious charlatans and their
commercialized goods they offer to the public.
Many things prove the bible is false, but I don't thing 607 does since that was a specific interpretation by JW's.
Better to look at things like creation, the flood, the contradictions, and the pure horror of the thing.
NC
Think Londo's argument is spot on.. it's not the bible that's wrong it's the WT interpretation..
the only reason why they stick to 607BCE is so it can fit with their interpretation of 1914.. of course that is wrong too.. if it was right then they wouldn't need an overlapping generation...
