When I read this account, it seems to me that God is not threatened by the height of the tower, but rather it's the fact that humans were able to work together to design and build such a thing and invent the processes necessary to make the materials and do the construction work. It is a very petty outlook, almost as if God is saying to himself "look at all they can do on their own, pretty soon they won't need me at all".
The tower of Babel- full of holes?
by highdose 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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designs
Desert gods are very insecure.
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Larsinger58
This literally happened. Babylon is an actual place--check with your favorite archaeologist on that or go to the library.
In the interim, let's look at the big picture here. 1/3 of the angels who see God directly didn't like his policies. God is okay with that. He created all creatures including angels with a mortality limit. Like the flowers that grow up and blossom and then die, so likewise the lifespan of all creatures can be controlled by God. This gives all the chance to choose if they like this God or not and if not, he will allow them not to extend their limited lifespan. But for those who like this god and are okay with his policies he extends them eternal life. I think the fact that God will not insist that anyone life unhappily forever is a loving thing. Letting their life expectancy expire is the best thing for them, really. Then those actually interested in living in peace with their neighbors can enjoy eternity.
As far a Babel and its tower was concerned, it at some level interfered with God's overall plan for man to spread out and create nations and nationalities, etc. And forget about the peaceful, one-language concept here. Babylon was corrupt. Nimrod had already begun hunting humans for sport. So this was the beginning of an oppressive society like Nazi Germany, who if they had not been stopped likely would have killed off anybody in the world who wasn't Aryan. So it was that kind of a sick society that God interrupted. They were direct rebels and terrorists and opposed to God's policies so God stepped in and forced them to do as he intended, which is the right of a "god", is it not? When the clay starts to tell the molder how it wants to be molded then the clay learns a lesson.
God gives all a short period of lifespan to basically discover themselves and make moral choices and ultimately test to see if they are eternity material. Everyone doesn't fit that criteria. But for those who do, there is a wonderful future ahead for them.
LS
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Larsinger58
This literally happened. Babylon is an actual place--check with your favorite archaeologist on that or go to the library.
In the interim, let's look at the big picture here. 1/3 of the angels who see God directly didn't like his policies. God is okay with that. He created all creatures including angels with a mortality limit. Like the flowers that grow up and blossom and then die, so likewise the lifespan of all creatures can be controlled by God. This gives all the chance to choose if they like this God or not and if not, he will allow them not to extend their limited lifespan. But for those who like this god and are okay with his policies he extends them eternal life. I think the fact that God will not insist that anyone life unhappily forever is a loving thing. Letting their life expectancy expire is the best thing for them, really. Then those actually interested in living in peace with their neighbors can enjoy eternity.
As far a Babel and its tower was concerned, it at some level interfered with God's overall plan for man to spread out and create nations and nationalities, etc. And forget about the peaceful, one-language concept here. Babylon was corrupt. Nimrod had already begun hunting humans for sport. So this was the beginning of an oppressive society like Nazi Germany, who if they had not been stopped likely would have killed off anybody in the world who wasn't Aryan. So it was that kind of a sick society that God interrupted. They were direct rebels and terrorists and opposed to God's policies so God stepped in and forced them to do as he intended, which is the right of a "god", is it not? When the clay starts to tell the molder how it wants to be molded then the clay learns a lesson.
God gives all a short period of lifespan to basically discover themselves and make moral choices and ultimately test to see if they are eternity material. Everyone doesn't fit that criteria. But for those who do, there is a wonderful future ahead for them.
LS
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Crisis of Conscience
finally awake - at your comment.
CoC
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Leolaia
They never finished the tower, so just how high it would have been is only speculation -- right?
There is a definite archtectural limit on the size of a structure like a ziggurat before it collapses in on itself from its own weight. And the height I cited is that of the complete ziggurat in Babylon that Nebuchadnezzar II had repaired.
THis is a BLATANT sabotaging of the human race and their potential. Besides being cruel and petty, it also is an entirely unfair handicap to put on humans in God's case for universal sovreignty!
Yeah. We had a thread here last year making that point....the JW doctrine of "universal sovereignty" stands in contradiction to this story. This however is actually an ongoing theme in the Jahwist primeval narrative. Yahweh prevents the man from attaining equality with the gods in ch. 3 and bestows curses on the man and the woman, he brings a Flood to destroy humankind and the semi-divine heroes and men of fame (while saving Noah) in ch. 6, and so in ch. 11 he also prevents humankind from attaining its potential. A similar role is taken by Enki in Babylonian mythology. Enki creates humans to be laborers of the gods, and he prevents Adapa, the first man, from attaining immortality by telling him that the food of life is actually the food of death. He also conspires to save Atrahasis from the Flood (the bringer of the Flood was Enlil; in the biblical version the two roles are conflated in a single figure in Yahweh), and he also confuses the languages and brings contention to a humanity that had been one.
Guys, the story is that the founders of the first city engage in a project that is driven by an excess of pride and that this pride is necessarily opposed to God. God disapproves. The story is true beyond any narrow historical reading. Narrow historical readings of the first chapters of Genesis are our own failing, not that of the authors.
Yeah. That's well said. I do think there is more than just folklore at work here. There is a probable dependence here on the Enuma Elish; there is even a passage with close verbal similarity, reproducing in Hebrew the same poetic alliteration that exists in the Akkadian original. In the Enuma Elish, the building of Esagila and Etemenanki are seen as entirely positive events to the glory of Marduk and Babylon. The attitude is the opposite in the Jahwist narrative. A very interesting reading results if the story is viewed as exilic in origin. The same theme of pride appears in Ezekiel 31 applied to Egypt; the pharoah is compared to a cedar with "its top piercing the clouds" and Yahweh takes action to cut it down to Sheol. The metaphor of the cloud-piercing tree as a symbol of pride is also utilized in Daniel 4, where it is applied to the pride of Nebuchadnezzar II as he was looking at the glory of Babylon. Since Nebuchadnezzar was indeed the king responsible for the glory of the rebuilt Etemenanki, the dream vision has a prescient connection with the Babel narrative. The metaphor is also suggested by the descriptions of Esagila and Etemenanki in the Enuma Elish and building dedication inscriptions, the former having its head raised up to the heavenly Apsu and the latter being the bond bridging heaven and earth. If the story is exilic, it has an interesting setting in life. Babylon was the supreme power in the region and exiles from the nations were all gathered together in Babylon. And there was a danger of acculturation, with Jews giving up their Hebrew identity and children born in Babylon adopting Akkadian instead of Hebrew as their native language. The story might then involve the desire for Yahweh to bring judgment on Babylon, making the city account for its pride and disperse the exiled nations from Babylon (the Jahwist story of Abram leaving Ur of the Chaldeans for the promised land in Canaan reflects the same wish for the exiles to depart Mesopotamia for the land of Judah). Jeremiah had a similar attitude, warning the exiles not to set roots in Babylon (ch. 25, 29), and delivering oracles of judgment against Babylon (ch. 50-51), with her sentence "reaching to the sky, rising to the very clouds" (Jeremiah 51:9).
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simon17
As far a Babel and its tower was concerned, it at some level interfered with God's overall plan for man to spread out and create nations and nationalities, etc. And forget about the peaceful, one-language concept here. Babylon was corrupt. Nimrod had already begun hunting humans for sport. So this was the beginning of an oppressive society like Nazi Germany, who if they had not been stopped likely would have killed off anybody in the world who wasn't Aryan. So it was that kind of a sick society that God interrupted. They were direct rebels and terrorists and opposed to God's policies so God stepped in and forced them to do as he intended, which is the right of a "god", is it not? When the clay starts to tell the molder how it wants to be molded then the clay learns a lesson.
No, this is totaly backwards thinking.
Apparently the clay already challenged its molder and now was given a chance to rule themselves to see if they could do better than God. If we are to believe that God accepted this challenge than he has NO RIGHT to intervene until the results bear themselves out.
And now you are saying God intervened to PREVENT man mis-ruling himself? Why? Thats precisely what NEEDS to happen for him to win the challenge of universal sovreignty! If man had become totally corrupt and a total disaster that quickly, than this challenge could have been answered decisively THOUSANDS OF YEARS ago. If Babylon was about to be enough to prove mankind needs God's rule, then we would not have had to endure the pain, death and suffering since then. Think about it.
Either interpretation you conceive of, this action was completely out of line.
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glenster
Starting from the Watchtower insistence on conservative literalist
interpretations--take it that way or no way--and working your way out gets
people messed up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel -
Flat_Accent
Yes, doesn't one of the verses read "There is nothing they will not be able to accomplish" ??
Would that include solving world hunger, poverty, curing diseases? That almost sounds like humans could go just fine on their own if God hadn't intervened. Plus, seeing as the whole point of the 'sovereignty challenge' was that God allow humans to do what they want without him interfering, but he doesnt get 100 years past the flood to intervene AGAIN. That's not really fair is it? Scuppering our plans, the bastard. . .
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highdose
yes and strange isnt it that god has no problem with GM foods, cloning, splitting the atom,gene resequencing or building space stations?
but buidling a ( by modern day standards) moderatly high building, oh no! his ego just can't cope with that!