Why should we hold other people responsible for what child sexual abusers do?

by Lady Lee 35 Replies latest jw friends

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  Lady Lee

  Pre JW I reported my father to the police. He was arrested and the police found my mother and told her to come get me. Then we had top go back for a court case which wound up being more of a custody hearing. He lost custody of me and my 3 younger brother but the judge did say it would be nice if my mother gave him 2 of the boys. She refused and took us home.

  My father was given a 3 yr suspended sentence and a $50 fine. This was 50 years ago - 50!!! Times have changed a bit.

  But my point here is that when we left the courthouse somewhere inside me I said he is not my father and have never called him that unless I am referring to the title, He is my sperm donor so I don't deny that but when talking abouit him to my mother or brothers or other family members I use his first name. He lost his rights to me legally and emotionally in that courthouse. Mind you having him approach me on the courthouse steps as we were leaving and say "If I ever see you again I will kill you." probably had am impact on that decision for me.
• 

  talesin

  He is my sperm donor so I don't deny that but when talking abouit him to my mother or brothers or other family members I use his first name. He lost his rights to me legally and emotionally in that courthouse. Mind you having him approach me on the courthouse steps as we were leaving and say "If I ever see you again I will kill you." probably had am impact on that decision for me.

  Day-yum!

  Lee ,,, goddess, woman,, I feel for you.. Many hugs and thanks for being able to bring this to the public forum.

  xoxo

  tal
• 

  sabastious

  Mind you having him approach me on the courthouse steps as we were leaving and say "If I ever see you again I will kill you." probably had am impact on that decision for me.

  Locking up types like your father in high security prisons, or even executing him, has very strong side effects. That's why I think Victoria's working with children act is the only lasting answer to this horrific question. Family can still love these monsters, hence the protection, and when you lock them up, or get them on death row, revenge is a worry.

  Think about a son who has got to have his dad around despite him being a predator behind the scenes for his whole life. The pain of loosing that person, for the delusional and siezed mind, can be just enough to protect him from harm. When that protection lasts for decades the protector actually creates something to lose. Like you said they are an accomplice, and like Outlaw said of the most selfish kind.

  What if you know that someone knows (you know?) Lets say you don't have the all the facts, but you know it's impossible for someone else NOT to have all of them. Where does the obligation end? When the trail is cold?

  Thank you for your posts in this thread Lady Lee.

  -Sab
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  sabastious

  It's obvious that the Watchtower mindset is the cause of all of the pain and suffering, through and through. This could easily be proven by interviewing witnesses around the world and asking them about the massive amount of suffering in their organization. Their answers would range from that they don't believe the presented facts to Satan's system is just running out of time and the pain and suffering and death of their own children, at the hands of predators in the congregation, was prophesized in the Bible. Regardless they will throw their arms up and one of their mantras will be spewed forth.

  This clearly creates a perpetual cycle of pain and suffering. People who are in pain will give that "last dime" just like the woman does in the Bible to religious organzations. Desperate people, because of our genetics, have often been recorded putting their last egg in someone elses basket. The Watchtower understands this natural human phenomenon, has studied it, and purposefully creates an environment which squeezes out eggs from suffering people. Of course they have their elite business class which yield all the benefits of the little society of cult members (they have seriously the hottest women. This is how No Room For George Was created, he suffers from "don't touch, only drool" syndrome). The business class achieve status by donating more, a lot more, than the dime throwers. They also have their clergy class which are taken care of in the most decadent of ways. 9 of them are even given a special room to commune with the First Cause. Unfortunately, for us all history repeats itself. That doesn't mean that we aren't moving forward, we are just not moving as fast as we have been saying all along.

  Therefore, any government that claims to be the protectors of their children's citizens have the ultimate responsibility to uphold that pledge to their people. They should not be fooled by a bunch of codependent Witnesses who have believed, taught and prophesied wrong for 120 years lead by some of the most blackhearted corrupt religious leaders I could ever imagine. Stop waiting for that knight in shining armor, BE that knight in shining armor. Don't blame me if you get killed though, because this organization will do it as a last resort. They don't just lose their mansions if they are exposed... they will be put away and everyone will be left wondering what country should punish them.

  -Sab
• 

  Lady Lee

  sab

  Locking up types like your father in high security prisons, or even executing him, has very strong side effects. That's why I think Victoria's working with children act is the only lasting answer to this horrific question. Family can still love these monsters, hence the protection, and when you lock them up, or get them on death row, revenge is a worry.

  Think about a son who has got to have his dad around despite him being a predator behind the scenes for his whole life. The pain of loosing that person, for the delusional and siezed mind, can be just enough to protect him from harm. When that protection lasts for decades the protector actually creates something to lose. Like you said they are an accomplice, and like Outlaw said of the most selfish kind.

  What if you know that someone knows (you know?) Lets say you don't have the all the facts, but you know it's impossible for someone else NOT to have all of them. Where does the obligation end? When the trail is cold?

  I see a major problem with the Working with Chidren Act. It still doesn't protect a child at home when the abuser is a relative. It doesn't even address that issue. It is about people who have jobs or volunteer their time that requires they work with children. The exemptions list starting on page 47 is rather interesting. They give the example where a person has a child involved in a team sport, The abuser is exempt from the assessment as long as his child is involved with the team sport. He is also exempt if his child is not present some days. So if he is the coach and his kid is sick and stays home he is still exempt.

  If I am reading you correctly, and I am not sure that I am, placing offenders in prison or executing them (I can't see that unless he murdered a child) is more damaging than leaving the offender in the home.

  I have read what you posted several times and I am still confused.
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  sabastious

  If I am reading you correctly, and I am not sure that I am, placing offenders in prison or executing them (I can't see that unless he murdered a child) is more damaging than leaving the offender in the home.

  I'm sorry if my post made it seem like that, it was not intended. I am in no way against locking up offenders or executing them. However, there is backlash from it that I think should be accounted for. True evil people will take their last opportunity to instill fear in their victims even while incarcerated. It's not unheard of for something to be organized within a prison that affects the outside world. Not all sex offenses get life in behind bars. If I put someone in jail and then had a kid I would have to be concerned with that kid being a target. I'm just trying to say that the answers my country (not totally sure about yours) have are pitiful in regards to sex offenses and jailing in general.

  In the end it has to be science that makes the judgement. If someone can be proven that they are indeed not worth the money to rehabilitate then it is immoral to spend money you don't have to lock them up for decades. They need to just be put out of society and let God or the Devil deal with them. A true death penalty, like the old days, is what needs to be enforced and not just for sex crimes, but any gross crime.

  This video series is very informative on the topic:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhoj1Sj5X0g

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoEFgW2Qa9s

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snGCY7PFumU

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcvcGLubUiA

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4ZYnAD7LcE

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Cejz1Nsxo

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ5FxESOzQw

  When you force human brains to act in a way contrary to their natural genetic predisposition you are going to have problems. Sexual dysfunction is not the crime, but it leads to some committing them. A working with children law, although as you say doesn't completely solve everything, is a very imporant step, imo. Religious parents in organizations like the Watchtower live in blissful ignorance of the science in the above video. Education is how you permeate the modern family and make changes, there are very few other affective ways.

  -Sab
• 

  Lady Lee

  I totally agree education must play a central role in changing attitudes about abuse. That is why for years I was on TV, th eradio and in the newspapers and journals talkign aout abuse. I also went into colleges and universities. . . pretty much anywhere that wanted someone to talk about the subject.

  Most parents who are sex offenders do not seek retribution from their vicotms. I would much rather the child be afraid of that though then be afriad every time "daddy" comes home from work or they have to go for visitation with him. (Using him because that was my case but it could very well be a female offender)

  There used to be a train of thought that a child would suffer more knowing they had sent a parent to jail than if they said nothing. Believe me it is a lot easier to deal wioth that kind of unwarranted guilt than have the child live in silence while suffering more abuse. BTW most children are sexually abused by someone they know well.

  One of the biggest problems is that judges need to be educated about the long term damage of these predators and they need to enforce the maximum pernalties with no chance of early parole. The offenders name needs to go on a sex offenders list and th eoffender must never be allowed to work around childre.

  When I confronted my father, I also notified extended family. That is when I found out his abuse had not stopped. He was doing some highly inappropriate things around my then 15-yr old step-sister. And I was told that at one point he had a job as a street crossing guard for the local school. MY step-father escaped to the US and married a woman with daughters and became foster parents for girls. I have no idea how many victims these two many had. A lot of time behind bars would have protected many children.

  Where I live now (Ontario Canada) we have a sex offenders list. But only those who have been convicted are on it. If it was now neither my fahter ot my step-father would be on the list because in my father's case somebody decided it was betternot to put me through a trial) and in the case of my step-fahter no one reported him to the police - thanks to the elders. Oranizations/religions need to be very heavily fined for not reporting disclosures of sexual abuse.

  Now here is my main argument about the stance the WTS has taken:

  They claim they have clergy privilege despite the fact that they supposedly don't have a clergy class - but no they do since all JWs are ministers

  Clergy privilege only applies when the offender confesses a crime to his clergyperson.

  It does not apply when a child or a parent of a child goes to the elders and asks for help.
• 

  Band on the Run

  Lady Lee,

  People in general must realize that abuse is not confined to the moments or hours of the actual incident. It often cripples for life without treatment. Without treatment, abuse is contagious and goes down generational lines, as in your family. I was the scapegoat. My father did not overtly sexual abuse me overtly. I was blessed with that. There was a rape monitoring system enacted, altho I did not know it at the time. The sexual tension was so thick you could cut it with a knife. My sister is seven years younger. She was the baby. It is very frustrating for me b/c she feels the abuse happened nad it ended. Only a small but sad portion of her life was spent under my father's abuse. I was practically an adult when he died.

  My mom was the scapegoat until I reached puberty. ACA has helped me so much as has almost constant therapy. The only solution proposed was for me to live with distant relatives that I did not know. I would go into exile for his bad behavior. My mom and siblings would side with him but have great tension. Once, and only once, my brother stood up to the plate and intervened to help me rather than cry. He cried and begged for my father to stop hurtiing me. I was 100% certain my brother was going to die. There was no restraint concerning consequences. All he did was place his hands lightly on my father to restrain him from breaking my back.

  Both my brother and I had plans to kill my father. I never, never refer to my father as my dad. He lost dad privileges long ago. Sperm donor is accurate. The sad part is I believe most abusers would prefer to be loved. His world had to be agony for him.

  I've noticed that when groups of women are discussing topics, an incest survivor will confide the fact. Other women typically scream at her to stop which made me scream that the shame was the abusers. Later, I discovered the reasons for the shreiks to shut up. The screecher was a fellow survivor.
• 

  metatron

  I recognize a collection of experiences that are more painful and deep than anything I have gone thru myself. That said, I still am forced to conclude that a high degree of interpretation is involved.

  For example, when I was an elder, I became interested in the 'repressed memory' syndrome. I noted this: Claimants of this abuse seemed to be severely depressed, often anorexic, often obsessed with it, in a sad or hurtful way. Whether or not these things really happened, I know not but they feel them as real, along with real emotional turmoil.

  I also noted that hookers, adult film stars and the like often seemed quite bold about what they did, often NOT depressed or shy about their lives. Many were very business-like and more than a few seemed rather happy with what they were doing (Nina Hartley or Tiffany Million).

  The difference has to be one's outlook, interpretation, as regards sexual conduct. I once heard of a eastern guru who was confronted with an agitated woman who asked how to handle her worries and mental concerns. The guru firmly told her his goal was for her to stop thinking about it, transcend it, leave it behind. I find it hard to fault that counsel. There is a limit to what talking about a problem can fix.

  My childhood was not perfect. There are things I still cringe at, when I think back...... all the more reason to let go of it.

  As for the rest, I don't know. Child molesting seems incurable and untreatable. What can be done other than lock these people up permanently?

  metatron
• 

  Lady Lee

  metatron

  The reality of all abuse is that it leaves scars that go unnoticed. Sexual; abuse is far more than a sex act performed on a child. The pshychological terrorism on the victim is immense. And this happens when the victim, by virtue of being a child, has the least ability to make sense of what is being done. Inevitably the damage winds up becoming a part of the person't identity. Every thing they see is colored through the lens of the abuser. And almost all of it is so wrong. Every single relationship the child has with other people are colored by what the abuser taught them. Even in women who interpreted the abuse as nothing (like my mother) the long-term side effects like long term depression and sometimes eating disorders along with a host of other far worse things are normal response to the abuse.

  Therapy is more than just talking about hwat happened. It is a matter of helping the victim to see the abuse for what it was, to recognize that not everyone is an abuser, that he or she has been using methods of self=protection that are based in their childhood but do not work very well in adulthood, helping them develop new ways of coping with theri feelings, memories and relationships. It is far far different than what an elder is trained to do. Prayer, meetings and service along with "putting it in the past" don't work. Believe me. I tried. And so do most victims. We want to forget and put it in the past. But Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder in fact the more severe kind Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disoder which is what most victims experience is a very complex disoder.

  Remeber too that most victim sof sexual abuse when they are children have not been subjected to one event. From the ages of 8-13 I was probably subjected to around 700 separate attacks. It is kinda hard to just pretend that never happened. And many of the people I worked with experienced sexaul abuse far longer than I did.