I have other sheep which are not of this fold

by Wayward Son 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  sabastious

  wouldn't it make sense that they were the "fold" being referenced? Wouldn't it make sense that the "other sheep" are just non-Jews?

  This is exactly correct. I believe to understand the Gospel you just have to read it like a book. The narrative of the Gospel has Jesus destroying the whole concept of a "chosen fold." Every Hebrew he spoke to fully believed that the covenent with Abraham was with them personally as well, however they had long since broke it and it never was meant to last forever anyway. The moment the first covenent was made by YHWH and Abraham it was known that eventually his decendents would fall into idolatry and general immorality (lies, cheating, conspiracy etc). That's why a messiah was always necessary because the whole narrative of the Old Testament is largely a bunch of Shakespearean tragedies. The Hebrews were like the Buffalo Bills of the late eighties early ninties. They kept getting to the big game, but in the end they always found a way to bet it all and lose. The "other sheep" are most definitely refering to the much larger class of non Hebrews.

  -Sab
• 

  GOrwell

  Ephesians 2:11-18 is the best Biblical reference I know of that shows the 2 groups, Gentiles and Jews, merging and becoming one.

  From the NWT:

  "Therefore keep bearing in mind that formerly YOU were people of the nations as to flesh; “uncircumcision” YOU were called by that which is called “circumcision” made in the flesh with hands— 12 that YOU were at that particular time without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel and strangers to the covenants of the promise, and YOU had no hope and were without God in the world. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near, 18 because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father by one spirit."
• 

  dog is god

  Disillnd Lamb. I had lunch with a former priest for 40 yrs. He said that in all his seminary studies there was NEVER a mention of the Gnostic Gospels. When Constantine gathered the bishops they cherry picked all canons that worked to unite the Church as a POWER. It wasn't about truth of God. They ordered all other tomes to be distroyed even though they were just as valid as the ones they chose. I recently listened to Elaine Pagels CD about the book of Thomas. Really interesting. The JWs study not to find Truth but only to enforce what they have been taught. I told him about a documentary I saw about the Vatican Library and I said that the church knows they are teaching crap. He believes they have all the lost gnostic information. The NWT says it is translated from the origional languages. Well there are NO origional writings even close to being origional...not even the dead sea scrolls....they too are a translation. AND there were up to 30 other gnostic writings (including the book of Judas which is a real mind blower) that were laying right with the copy from Isaiah. Hardly anyone mentions these.
• 

  Wayward Son

  Thanks for all the comments.

  sir82, you're kind of a goober. LOL I admire that quality.

  GOrwell, thanks for that scipture qoute. I don't remember ever reading that even though I have been through the bible, Ephesians in particular, a few times.

  This has been such a learning experience for me since I started reading the bible (and this forum) and my brain was actually hearing the words. Before, the WTS already told me what I believed, so reading the bible was just a formality. I could let my eyes glaze over and spittle run off my chin as I absorbed, like osmosis, confirmation that the WTS was right.

  There. I did my bible reading. I'm so intelligent!

  Dog is God, I have suspected for a long time the institutions of religion know the error of some of their teachings but are too rooted in tradition to change. Or fear loosing credibility... and money. In my life I never thought I would bundle the WTS in with that suspicion but the evidence is was it is.

  I have wiped the spit off my chin and blinked a few times.
• 

  Disillusioned Lost-Lamb

  @dog is god: Thanks for the info.

  The best part is the ambiguity of the contemporary Bible always allows for an out, such as we cannot understand the complete ways of God, or God works in mysterious ways; in other words stop asking you sorry little ingrate and just believe us.

  How convenient!

  I've always felt that any religion, institution or entity who can base their structure on unsubstantiated, incomplete, inaccurate and/or untraceable information is like Swiss cheese; full of holes and kinda stinky.
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  Chalam

  Romans 1:16

  New International Version (NIV)

  16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

  Acts 3:25-26

  New International Version (NIV)

  25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”
• 

  Chalam

  This says it all.

  Ephesians 2:11-22

  New International Version (NIV)

  Jew and Gentile Reconciled Through Christ

  11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

  14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

  19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
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  No Room For George

  Miss seeing your around here Chalam. Hope all is well with you.

  That Romans 1:16 verse really does put it all into perspective. There's really nothing to debate or discuss, it's that simple.
• 

  Chalam

  All is good thanks :)

  "First to the Jew, then the Gentile" reoccurs in Romans, see Romans 2:9, Romans 2:10

  Clearly, God called the Jews first in the old covenant and also them first in the new.

  There are plenty of prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the forthcoming inclusion of the Gentiles Amos 9:11-12, Isaiah 60:3

  This is maybe the most telling

  Isaiah 65:1

  English Standard Version (ESV)

  Judgment and Salvation

  65 I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me;
  I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me.
  I said, “Here I am, here I am,”
  to a nation that was not called by [ a ] my name.

  Footnotes:

  1. Isaiah 65:1 Or that did not call upon

  Peter got the message after he had his vision :) Acts 10