Prelude to a disfellowshipping

by rory-ks 63 Replies latest jw friends

PrincessCynic

wishing you all the best for tomorrow I'll be thinking of you
PaintedToeNail

Another belated welcome! You sound very comfortable with what you believe, which is great. I hope that you and your family have lots of happiness.
PTN
digderidoo

Great blog, sent you a pm.
00DAD

Well of course you don't actually HAVE to go to this meeting, but if you do remember they actually have no real authority over you unless you give it to them.
Best wishes!
00DAD
ziddina

"As I mentioned on JWR get a digital recorder and record it all, also leave it in the room, covertly and excuse yourself to the bathroom just after it gets interesting for some later review of what is being said out of your presence. ..." notjustyet page #2
Ahhh.....
This is NOT a good idea, unless you can be CERTAIN that they won't find out that they're being recorded....
It may be illegal in your state to record others' conversations without their knowledge.
Elders' bodies are becoming more sophisticated about recording devices, since so many recordings have shown up on YouTube. If you WERE to do something like this, it would probably require a substantial investment of money in state-of-the-art recording devices, to avoid detection...
00DAD

Ziddina, you know you're my favorite dragon, but who the fuck cares if it's legal or not. Their goddamned star-chamber method of "judicial matters" is certainly illegal by human rights standards and conventions in any enlightened society on earth!
They require you to be alone in a room, 3:1, with no representation, no recording devices of any kind to be judged by people with absolutely no qualifications or credentials of any relevance to make life altering decisions. How could anyone ever prove that "justice" was done or that it was miscarried? They couldn't. That is the reason why the WTBTS has the ridiculously one-sided "no recording devices" rule. Screw that!
My advice: Don't go. But if you do: Record it. What are they gonna' do anyways? If they find it, so what! Are they going to take it? That's stealing. Demand it's return or file a police report and have them arrested.
They make up stupid rules designed to control the situation. You don't have to play by them.
Seriously, where's the Due Process? Non-existent, that where! What kind of messed up "society" would expect its members to agree to be bound by "judicial procedures" that you couldn't possibly know unless you are an elder?
BTW: Ziddy, you're still my favorite dragon!!!
00DAD
Judicial Hearing Procedure, Chapter 7
Recording Devices
"Recording devices should not be allowed." - STFOG, p. 90 - Emphasis in original
- The same paragraph also says, "Observers should not be present for moral support."
  Q: Does that mean they can be allowed for other reasons?
  A: No.
NOTE: What follows is my personal advice for someone that wants to fade-away, but does not want to be disfellowshipped or to disassociate themselves … yet the elders are on a witch hunt to try to get something on them.
I really believe that if you are asked to meet with the elders you should avoid it at all costs. If the meeting is really just a "shepherding call" then there is really no downside to meeting with them other than the possibility of saying something that later on can be used against you. Of course, meeting could buy you some time and good-will in respects to your fade.
On the other hand, if it is a meeting with two elders sent to "investigate the matter" there is no downside to refusing to meet and a lot of good reasons to avoid the meeting. - (See STFOG, p. 72, #38 and 38)
The elders can only proceed against an individual if they have two or more witnesses. In that event, if you are invited to a Judicial Committee meeting and do not attend, then you can be disfellowshipped in absentia. So in this case, it is probably best to meet and do what you can to deal with the situation. Understand that attending a JC meeting is tantamount to playing on their field by their rules and by doing so implies recognition of the authority of the WTBTS.
At any rate, I absolutely believe that if someone does meet with the elders they should RECORD THE MEETING. The elders are only instructed to make an issue of it if the meeting is a Judicial Hearing. They are instructed to not allow recordings or observers. If you decide to record the meeting, there are several things you can do if, and when, they ask if you have any recording devices:
- Lie
- Question
- Deflect
- Acknowledge
Let's look at these options one at a time and see how they might play out in a Judicial Hearing:
- Lie - Although this is certainly one strategy, personally I'm not an advocate of this approach for several reasons. First, and most importantly, it would be imitating the very hypocrisy of the WT leadership which has gotten most of us to this place. That being said, I do not believe we are obliged to be forthcoming about facts that are none of their damn business. (Does the term, "Theocratic Warfare" come to mind?) Secondly, it can come back to bite you. From a purely practical standpoint, if you ever want or need to use any of the recording, then it can be pointed out that you lied when asked about a recording device and then your honesty and credibility has been compromised. Your call.
- Question - "Why do you ask?"
  It's entirely possible that after they ask they may forget you didn't answer and proceed. If they do notice, then you can move to one of the next options.
- Deflect - "Yes, I understand the rule."
  This is tricky ploy. They may not notice that you actually admitted you were recording the meeting because it seems that you are acknowledging acceptance of the procedures when in reality your are only acknowledging understanding. You are not obligated to explain the English language to them.
- Acknowledge - "Yes I am. Why? Is that a problem."
  If you do this, the elders are instructed to tell you that it is not allowed. To which (assuming you have never been an elder or in a JC meeting before) you could respond,
  "Really?!? Where is THAT written?" and possibly adding, "Show me the scriptural basis for this!"
  These rules are of course NOT in any publication that the average JW would have access to read, but only in the secret elders' handbooks. If they tell you where the rule is located, ask to read it. Better yet, ask for a copy of all the rules of the Judicial Hearing Procedures. Explain you need this to prepare yourself and would have appreciated being given this information in advance; (this is how things are done in secular courts). They will of course never give you this. It is doubtful that they would even let you see the book, let alone let you read anything in it.
  This is where it is time to up the ante by simply saying, "Well I don't agree to that. I want to have a record of everything discussed at this meeting for my own protection. And so I'm going to record this meeting."
  You could possibly add, "Are you guys afraid you'll say something you wouldn't want anyone else to hear?"
  They'll probably mumble something about "confidentiality", but the truth is most elders haven't thought this one through. They are simply blindly following WT Procedures which have been instituted precisely because many elders HAVE said things in JC meetings that have gotten them into legal trouble.
  It is likely at this time that the elders will suspend the meeting. As far as I can determine, there are no instructions as to what they should do if someone refuses to comply with this directive*. In the 20 years I was an elder I served on countless JCs and it never came up, not once. Every single JW obediently and unquestioningly agreed to not record the meeting, or at least that's what they said.
  If they do not suspend the meeting, then you can proceed to the next point.
- Conclusion: I think here is where the individual can really turn things around. This can be very powerful, especially considering that this entire conversation has been and is being recorded. I would recommend proceeding with a statement along the lines of something like this:
  "Let me get this straight. This is a closed-door, secret, 'Star Chamber' judicial meeting, there are three of you and I'm alone. I am not allowed to have anyone present to assist me or support me in any way; I am not even allowed to have a single, independent witness present; I am not allowed to record it; it is being conducted according to a set of secret procedures to which I could not have had previous access or knowledge, and to which I am now explicitly being denied a copy of those procedures--in fact, you won't even let me look at them let alone read them--and yet you somehow expect me to go along with all of this as if it's OK?!?"
  They will of course say, "Yes, we do expect you to go along with it."
  You respond, "I don't think so - sorry, but no! This arrangement makes me uncomfortable. In fact, it makes me very uncomfortable. This so-called "judicial arrangement" is in violation of basic human civil rights recognized in every civilized country on earth. I cannot take part in this. This is wrong."
  For fun you could add, "I think you're making this up. This can't be right, this can't be true." But unfortunately, it is.
  Then get up and leave.
If you admit to recording the meeting, it will likely result in the meeting being stopped by the elders. This will probably only delay the inevitable, but it does bring to light the abusive, un-enlightened nature of this "Theocratic" arrangement. If the elders don't stop the meeting, but balk at it, it provides the opportunity for the individual to take control and end the meeting if they so choose on grounds that are well-justified and unassailable, at least from a rational, secular standpoint. Less likely is that the elders would allow the recording. If they do, then at least you'll have a record of what transpired, including their deviation for the WTBTS Judicial Hearing Procedures script.
* Elders are instructed to suspend the meeting and call the branch if someone threatens legal actions during the Judicial Hearing:
- "If the accused threatens legal action against the elders, the elders should suspend proceedings and promptly telephone the branch office." - STFOG, 6:17-19, p. 86
CONCLUSION: If you play by their rules you lose every time. Refuse to play by their rules.
ziddina

"Well of course you don't actually HAVE to go to this meeting, but if you do remember they actually have no real authority over you unless you give it to them. ..." 00Dad
Along with what 00Dad said...
I noticed that you have a wife, children, and either in-laws and/or parents still "in" the religion. It would be - have been - SO much more effective to quietly 'fade', rather than, in effect, wave a red flag in front of the bull's nose...
Have you thoroughly thought thru what this may do to your family? Are you absolutely certain that your wife will stay with you, rather than divorce you, and possibly take the children with her? To be raised within the sect as "active" Jehovah's Witnesses - with you left looking in from the outside, with little to no opportunity to protect your children from the negative effects of the religion???
I don't mean to discourage you, but it does seem that you have reached some sort of "breaking point", that prompted you to become much more public with your doubts or questions.
That's perfectly valid IF you had been dealing with MOST mainstream Christian religions....
Unfortunately, you've come up against the "high-control" aspect of this sect.
I would like to encourage you to proceed with your ultimate goal of achieving greater freedom of thought and religion - I just want to suggest that you may want to try much more subtle means of getting to that point.
You may want to do some reading on these older threads...
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/34600/1/How-I-helped-my-Family-Leave-Jehovahs-Witnesses
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/157525/1/More-on-how-I-got-my-family-out
And my crappy old computer has locked up - when I tried to go to page #2 of the "Search" on "How I Got My Family Out", the damned window collapsed...
But if you try that search, I'm sure you'll find MANY good threads on the subject - I just can't access them to link them for you...
Oh, and WELCOME TO THE BOARD!!
Zid - the board's She-Devil
ziddina

Heh, heh...
00Dad, just saw your comment...
My computer is so frakked-up, it took 15 minutes just to kick it's arse into posting that!!! And it's SKIPPING LETTERS in damn near EVERY word that I type!!!
But yeah, I agree that just because something's "illegal", DOESN'T mean that it's "immoral" - just that he needs to be VERY sure that he doesn't get caught - especially if he decides that it's not quite the right time to make waves...
As in my above post...
I always say, if yer gonna "spy", then do it RIGHT!! DON'T get caught, cuz THAT would be worse than not having recorded it at all!!! [in my dragonny opinion, that is... ]
00DAD

Ziddy: if yer gonna "spy", then do it RIGHT!!
There's a reason my moniker is 00DAD

Prelude to a disfellowshipping

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