Does this not sound phony to you? Matthew 24

by Terry 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    Sometimes certain things are too familiar. We've seen or read or heard them so often we've become "blind" to them.

    Matthew 24

    New International Version (NIV)

    Matthew 24
    The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times

    1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

    The above scriptures verse 1 and verse 3 are like separate scenes in a movie.

    Verse 1 locates the action directly in front of the Jerusalem temple. The impression is given that Jesus is sight-seeing and clueless as any tourist visiting the Holy Land might be. The disciples call his attention to the various aspects of the buildings.

    As a response to what must have been admiration and awe for the temple's features and architecture, Verse 2: Jesus shuts down the topic by changing the subject to a future condition of total destruction.

    No indication is given that anybody said anything at this point because the scene abruptly changes to :

    Verse 3.

    In Verse 3 it is some time later in a separate location when Jesus is in a solitary situation. He is approached by disciples.

    What is odd about this?

    The writer (Matthew?) breaks the bold statement about Destruction away from the natural response it would certainly elicit at that moment!

    "Matthew" artificially creates a GAP!

    Are we to accept that such an unexpected statement about the most important building in all of Judaism would not have caused a huge argument? Amazement? Demands for clarification? Might not a crowd gather, etc?

    But, no!

    The RESPONSE is artificially made to follow in a literary framing device....later. Jesus is all by himself and is approached specifically as a STAGED moment for a very odd series of questions, indeed!

    How do we know this is STAGED?

    Look at the language which is self-conscious of the literary contrivance of the PRECEDING VERSE!

    It is spoken AS THOUGH the disciples know what Matthew has just written!

    Imagine it is hours later and Jesus is alone and you walk up to him in a group.

    Is it not the most natural thing to say: "Lord, remember earlier when we were at the temple and you said it would be destroyed?"

    But, no!

    There is no attempt at this because the writer has artificially created a STAGED MOMENT.

    Why?

    It is the AUTHOR putting words into the mouths of disciples quite clearly!

    This is what is called an "insertion".

    The disciples had no reason to think Jesus was GOING AWAY in order to RETURN, did they? In fact, they hardly ever understood anything Jesus said!

    So, why would they start a sentence by saying:

    “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen,(THIS? THIS WHAT? NOBODY HAS SET THE CONTEXT BY ANY PRECEDING STATEMENT) and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

    Who talks like that? Only literary characters in stage plays.

    This is some later scribe (writing this) who has been taught a doctrine about Jesus 2nd coming who is putting words in the characters' mouth!

    Why would any disciple even THINK for one minute they would need a SIGN? Or, that much later at the END of the AGE Jesus would return?

    It is all bollocks!

    No such conversations or prophecies were uttered by Jesus. It is the later writers who INSERTED the prophecy AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem RETROFITTING its complete destruction into an awkward "conversation" to make Jesus appear to have KNOWN in advance!

    Once you reread the entire scenario AS WRITTEN it becomes very awkward and contrived and phony.

    Can you imagine, after Jesus death, the followers wondering why things went down the way they did? Instead of the Messiah being like King David and re-establishing a dynasty to rule over Rome and all the earth--the Messiah is now DEAD!

    How can it be?

    Well, maybe he WILL do those things.....um.....later! Yeah, that's the ticket! He'll come back later and do the Messianic things!

    But, years and years and years passed and Rome continued as always......

    The story is told and retold.....each time adding new details!

    In new stories, Jesus knew it ALL way in advance even TOLD the disciples the temple would be destroyed just like it happened!

    Instead of coming quickly, as we all thought, he said he would return LATER!

    Etc etc.

    I just thought I'd frame this VERY FAMILIAR SCRIPTURE in a way that might make you stop and RE-consider it from a "NEW LIGHT" :)

  • bob1999
    bob1999

    Terry, one question.

    "Why would any disciple even THINK for one minute they would need a SIGN? Or, that much later at the END of the AGE Jesus would return?"

    What age were the disciples in at the time they ask the question?

    The answer is found at Hebrews 8:13 " By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." "soon"

    The old covenant was still in place at the time the disciples ask the question.

    All through the NT we find talk about "the end". Surely they were not talking about something that hasn't happened yet, 2000 years later.

    The "End" (of the age of the old covenant) came in 70AD with the destruction of the temple.

    Peace

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    Hi Bob! I think I agree with you. It wasn't about now. Why would they ask that? They certainly would not.

  • tec
    tec

    I see what you're saying, Terry, so I went back to see if this second coming or end of an age, etc, had been mentioned previously to his disciples, and both of those have been mentioned. Though it does seem as though Chapter 24 should start at verse three, and the preceding to verses should be the end of chapter 23.

    Did everything happen precisely as written? Doubtful. Details get moved around as you're remembering things. Also, an ine x perienced writer (or scribe, or someone who is piecing parts of stories together) might not remember whether or not he has revealed something that he already knows to his audience, and so make mention of it without revealing it first. Which I think is what you were getting to above. But it is mentioned earlier in this case.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • Terry
    Terry

    Did everything happen precisely as written? Doubtful. Details get moved around as you're remembering things. Also, an ine x perienced writer (or scribe, or someone who is piecing parts of stories together) might not remember whether or not he has revealed something that he already knows to his audience, and so make mention of it without revealing it first.

    Well, I think my point is MAINLY either scripture is INSPIRED (carefully directed and preserved) DIVINELY or.....

    it is just memory, word of mouth, scuttlebut, apologia, folk tales, modified conversations crafted into lessons, half-remembered anecdotes, polished

    hand-me-down tales beautified for edifying indoctrinations, etc etc.

    Either....Or......

    I would hardly think, BOTH.

  • Ding
    Ding

    I don't find the delay surprising.

    Jesus was always saying things that shocked the disciples, like eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

    They probably backed off, talked to each other, and then decided to ask him for more information.

    The Bible says that often when Jesus told a parable in public, he would later explain it to the twelve in private.

    They asked him later at the Mount of Olives when they were alone and they thought the time was more opportune to get an answer.

    What would the writer gain by artificially staging the follow up at a later time and place if it didn't really happen that way or didn't happen at all?

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    "Why would any disciple even THINK for one minute they would need a SIGN? Or, that much later at the END of the AGE Jesus would return?"

    The word sign can be translated as signal or ensign.

    The question, of verse 3 seems more along the lines of when Jesus returns and raises his standard, how will they know what it is, (The Romans and others identified themselves and there armies by the raising of a standard (sign). (An illustration. In the Cambridge encyclopedia under Stuart " He landed with seven followers at Eriskay in the Hebrides (July 1745) and raised his fathers standard (sign) The clans men flocked to him, Edinburgh surrendered and he kept court at Holyrood") The point of the standard is to be a gathering point. The Hebrew word "nes" (translated i understand) denotes a stationary pole or stake occupying an elevated site.

    The next time the word sign appears is in verse 30 where it talks of a gathering.

    30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

    31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other (NIV)

    They didnt need to know what the sign is as the angels gather them.

  • tec
    tec

    They probably backed off, talked to each other, and then decided to ask him for more information

    Yes. I think this as well.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    Since Matthew is a version of Mark rewritten specifically for the Jewish Christians, many verses that were added can only be the product of the writer's imagination! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_Gospels

  • mP
    mP

    again most xians or believers are trying to hard to find meaning to what appeara to be nonsense if read literally. most of the problems with understanding the bible occur when people accept stories to be fact and fact which is symbolism.

    this then requires more questions.

    - what is a sign ?

    - what is the end of the age ?

    there is only one answer which satisfies both questions, astrology. i k ow its nonsense but there are some simple facts that are more than mere coincidence with jesus and the gospels.

    - jesus was born exaxtly when the age of piaces started. this explains the fish symbolsim that floods xianity today.

    - the twelve apostles are the signs of the zodiac

    - the ens of the age is the ens of tyhe age of pisces which is about now when we will enter the age of aquarius.

    - before the age of pisces, there was the age of aires the ram. notice the jews were very ram/lamb religious.

    - before the age of aires was the age of taurus, the golden calf story is about the jews clinging onto pld religioua beleifs of tghe old age.

    - notice the repetition of astrological numbers 7 and 12 throughout tyhe bible. the original 7 are the planets, sun and moon. the 12 are the months of the year.

    i could continue, you wpuld be amazed how much astrology explains about the gospels, that amounts to literally hundreds of details.

    a last but significant point, is if the jews did not regard astrology, matthew would not have included the story of the star and the magi. these were included to impress them. if they really detested astrology why include auch a story, it doesnt make sense.

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