'Observing' or 'Commemorating' the Memorial

by The Searcher 17 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • The Searcher
  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    No thanks.

  • Ding
    Ding

    The OP is appropriate.

    At most KHs, absolutely nothing happens at the Memorial.

    No one partakes of anything.

  • moshe
    moshe

    I may call them up again and ask them why they are a day early for their festivities- the night of Passover is on Nisan 15.

  • Sayswho
    Sayswho

    AttendingasRespectfulObservers

    Watchtower 2/15/03 What Does the Lord’s Evening Meal Mean to You?

    'Since they are not Jesus’ joint heirs with a heavenly hope, they attend the Memorial as respectful observers.—*Romans 6:3-5.'

    Romans 6:3-5 Says:

    3 Or do YOU not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be [united with him in the likeness] of his resurrection;


    • The scripture at Romans 6:3-5 does not back up the thought of us being there as observers!!! How does this go unquestioned...Oh I know but I just had to ask.
    • Show me one scripture where Jesus sent someone out and said: "go get believers and non believers to observe me making a covenant with you"...AND I WILL GO--respectfully.

    We are intruders on this arrangement---uninvited guest--party crashers!

    Sw

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    HI MOSHE

    I may call them up again and ask them why they are a day early for their festivities- the night of Passover is on Nisan 15.

    Sorry, Moshe, but you are technically incorrect. The Jews left Egypt the very night they celebrated passover, but after midnight. Passover ends at midnight. The Jews leave on the 15th shortly after passover. But when the Jews left Egypt they followed Egyptian time and so the DATE changed from the 14th to the 15th at midnight.

    So technically, the DAY of the 15th is when the festival occurs at the temple to celebrate the date the Jews left Egypt. But that sabbath day is calculated from evening to evening, so passover is actually celebrated on the evening of the 14th, which turns into the 15th at midnight. So passover is eaten not on the 15th but the 14th.

    I haven't checked a Jewish calendar but when they show Passover occurring on the 15th, they celebrate it the night before on the 14th. Just like they note that Saturday is the sabbath, they begin the sabbath on Friday after sundown.

    Now some modern tradition begin the 15th of Nisan after sundown and so the concept is that passover is eaten on the 15th, which might be your reference. That is, if the Jews left on the 15th that night and the date changes at sunset, then obviously passover must be eaten on the 15th. That wouild be true, IF you change the date when the sabbath begins at sunset. But if you don't change the date until midnight, like the early Israelites, then passover is eaten on the 14th.

    The first day of unfermented cakes, which is the day the Israelites leave Egypt begins on the 14th in the evening. (Ex. 12:18)

    LS

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    BTT for comment on Lars post above. Moshe, Leo ?

    he could be right.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    We are intruders on this arrangement---uninvited guest--party crashers!

    Not intruders. We are all invited.

    It's like inviting guests to your house for dinner to mark a special occasion and telling them that, as they are not really family (only associates/companions of the family), none of the food is for them but they can respectfully watch the family eat.

    We've all been invited to a communion meal where, as it turns out, nobody (or maybe only one or two) eats.

    So everyone's shown up for dinner. The food and wine are prepared and laid out ... are offered, passed around ... and everybody declines.

    Bizarre, huh?

    w03 2/15 p. 16 par. 20 Why Observe the Lord's Evening Meal?

    Although more than one plate of bread and one cup of wine may be used, the Memorial is a communion meal. In ancient Israel, a man could provide a communion meal by bringing an animal to God's sanctuary, where it was slaughtered. Part of the animal was burned on the altar, a portion went to the officiating priest and another to Aaron's priestly sons, with the offerer and his household sharing in the meal. (Leviticus 3:1-16; 7:28-36) The Memorial too is a communion meal because it involves a sharing together.

  • moshe
    moshe

    Larsinger- call a Rabbi and have them explain it to you.

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @moshe:

    I may call them up again and ask them why they are a day early for their festivities- the night of Passover is on Nisan 15.

    "Now it was preparation of the passover; it was about the sixth hour." (John 19:14)

    "Now as it was already late in the afternoon, and since it was Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath." (Mark 15:42)

    "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the evening light of the sabbath was approaching." (Luke 23:54)

    How should we understand these texts? Please consider the following chart:

    NISAN 3793 A.M.

    33 AD (Julian/Gregorian)

    Passover: Nisan 14

    Preparation: Nisan 14

    Weekly Sabbath: Nisan 15

    High Sabbath* (Day 1): Nisan 15

    High Sabbath* (Day 7): Nisan 21

    Preparation: Nisan 21

    Weekly Sabbath: Nisan 22

    *Festival of Unfermented Cakes

    Sunday

    Monday

    Tuesday

    Wednesday

    Thursday

    Friday

    Saturday

    6PM-6AM

    (evening)

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13

    14

    15

    6AM-6PM

    (morning)

    6PM-6AM

    (evening)

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    6AM-6PM

    (morning)

    Preparation always falls on the day before the weekly sabbath, so since the weekly sabbath always begins on the seventh day at 6:00 pm (Saturday), this would mean that Preparation always falls on the day before the weekly sabbath on the sixth day at 6:00 pm (Friday).

    First, it must be noted that the Jews reckoned a day from sunset-to-sunset or evening-to-evening, so Jesus observed the passover with his apostles after 6:00 pm, during the evening hours on Thursday, when Nisan 14 began. However because Jesus was impaled approximately 21 hours later "about the ninth hour" during the daylight hours on Friday, but before the next evening began at 6:00 pm (at which time Friday, Nisan 14 would end and Friday, Nisan 15 would begin), this means that Jesus died on Thursday/Friday Nisan 14 during that 24-hour period that began at 6:00 pm Thursday, Nisan 14 and ended at 6:00 pm Friday, Nisan 14.

    Second, the Jews didn't use a midnight-to-midnight reckoning of the day in use today, for unlike what happens when the clock strikes midnight according to our midnight-to-midnight way of reckoning a day, Thursday became Friday at the stroke of midnight, but Friday continued to be Nisan 14 at midnight, continued to be Nisan 14 at 6:00 a.m., and only at dawn at 6:00 p.m. that Friday became Saturday Nisan 15. Since at 6:00 p.m. Nisan 15 began, then according to the Jews' evening-to-evening way of reckoning a day, Nisan 14 began the previous evening at 6:00 pm. (Friday) and ended on the next evening at 6:00 pm, when Nisan 15 began (Saturday).

    The above texts (John 19:14, Mark 15:42 and Luke 23:43) indicate that Jesus died on Preparation, which as pointed out above, always falls on the day before the weekly sabbath, which means that Jesus died on Nisan 14, the sixth day of the week, which is also the day on which the Jews observed the passover. On the following day, Nisan 15, which is the seventh day of the week, is the day on which the Jews would normally observe the weekly sabbath, except since the day after the passover is always a high sabbath when the first day of the festival of unfermented cakes was to be observed, Nisan 15 was a double sabbath. Day 1 of the festival of unfermented cakes always begins on Nisan 15 and Day 7 of this seven-day festival always ends on Nisan 21. Now consider this next chart:

    NISAN 2248 A.M.

    1513 BC (Julian/Gregorian)

    Passover: Nisan 14

    Preparation: Nisan 16

    Weekly Sabbath: Nisan 17

    High Sabbath* (Day 1): Nisan 15

    High Sabbath* (Day 7): Nisan 21

    Preparation: Nisan 23

    Weekly Sabbath: Nisan 24

    *Festival of Unfermented Cakes

    Sunday

    Monday

    Tuesday

    Wednesday

    Thursday

    Friday

    Saturday

    6PM-6AM

    (evening)

    11

    12

    13

    14

    15

    16

    17

    6AM-6PM

    (morning)

    6PM-6AM

    (evening)

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    6AM-6PM

    (morning)

    The above chart indicates that Nisan 14 fell on a Wednesday and that the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt began. The Bible indicates it was "on this night" before midnight of Nisan 14 that the Israelites ate the flesh of a lamb "with unfermented cakes along with bitter greens," and that it was "at midnight" that the destroyer came and passed over the homes of those having the blood of a lamb or a goat splashed upon their doorposts and on the upper part of their doorways. (Exodus 12:8, 29; Hebrews 11:28)

    Therefore, it was after midnight on Nisan 14, after the destroyer had struck every firstborn of man and beast in the land of Egypt, that a great outcry arose among the Egyptians "because there was not a house where there was not one dead," so it was "by night" that the king of Egypt summoned Moses and Aaron, telling them to "Get up, get out from the midst of my people, both you and the other sons of Israel, and go, serve Jehovah, just as you have stated. Take both your flocks and your herds, just as you have stated, and go." (Exodus 12:29-32)

    It was on this same night -- Nisan 14 -- that we read how the Egyptians had begun to urge the sons of Israel to leave "quickly out of the land," so that "the people carried their flour dough before it was leavened, with their kneading troughs wrapped up in their mantles upon their shoulder," and went on "to depart from Rameses for Succoth," along with some of the Egyptians that left Egypt with them on this night, and we note that "they began to bake the flour dough that they had brought out from Egypt into round cakes, unfermented cakes, because it had not leavened, for they had been driven out of Egypt and had not been able to linger and too they had not prepared any provisions for themselves," for they had left Egypt "on this night" -- Nisan 14 -- in haste with their hips girded and their sandals on their feet, carrying "their flour dough before it was leavened, with their kneading troughs wrapped up in their mantles upon their shoulder." (Exodus 12:37-40)

    Exodus 12:51 says that "it came about on this very day that Jehovah brought the sons of Israel together with their armies out of the land of Egypt." Note that the exodus occurred two days before Preparation (Nisan 16) and three days before the weekly sabbath (Nisan 17). However, the first day of the festival of unfermented cakes was to be observed the day after the passover, and Day 1 of the festival of unfermented cakes always begins on Nisan 15, and Day 7 of this seven-day festival always ends on Nisan 21.

    @Sayswho wrote:

    We are intruders on this arrangement---uninvited guest--party crashers!

    @AnnOMaly wrote:

    Not intruders. We are all invited.

    It's like inviting guests to your house for dinner to mark a special occasion and telling them that, as they are not really family (only associates/companions of the family), none of the food is for them but they can respectfully watch the family eat....

    Bizarre, huh?

    Yes, it would be bizarre if you were invited to watch other people eat, but those that attend the celebration of the memorial of Christ's death as observers is more like were the friends and relatives that were invited to a wedding as guests or were the friends and relatives that are invited guests at a high school to observe the graduation exercises in which each of the students that attended that school are being given their diploma.

    I've been an observer at all three of such ceremonies and there's nothing bizarre about attending any of such functions as an observer, unless you should arrive dripping wet -- hair and clothing -- when it isn't raining outside, and maybe the bizarreness of it all can be explained by your having taken a shortcut through someone's backyard when the sprinklers suddenly came on, which necessitated an immediate sprint on the part, except by the time you reached the sidewalk, well, ... you know what happened.

    The Memorial too is a communion meal because it involves a sharing together.

    And your point is...? Were you decidedly not making a point, @AnnOMaly?

    @djeggnog

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