Just something that came into my mind ... have you ever read the Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus? It is an awesome read for a seekers ... Josephus is problematic. He was pretty unreliable as a person, as a Jew and as an historian. He makes remarkable claims about himself. He quotes huge swathes of history from MEMORY! He wrote the same history, basically, twice; once for Jews and another time for Romans. Easy enough to compare one version with the other. Josephus betrayed his fellow soldiers and refused to make good on his own suicide. He flattered Titus and buttered him up cleverly. He essentially became the Roman's lap poodle. There are claims made for certain Christus passages which are highly disputed. But, yes--an extraordinary read!
Someone has a list of scholars who believe in Jesus as a real person in history?
by TJ Curioso 40 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Band on the Run
I suspect the Virgin Birth, Godhead, resurrection, and ascension would be extremely limited. It is possible but not probable if the world obeys certain laws such as gravity. Other religions teach miracles with their gods. We find legends. If I mention anything about Jesus being truly human as in Katzenzakis, The Last Temptation of Christ people where I now live get very upset. They censor me or tell me they are all right but their mother would be upset. The mother is not present.
Almost everyone accepted that much myth and legend is present in the NY area.
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TJ Curioso
UP!
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mP
@mindblown
there are only four contemporary non gospel accounts that mention jesus. none mention any of the events from his ministry. the josphus commentry is believec to be a later fraidulent insertion. at best those quotes hardly tell the story of jesus. for being the greatest story on earth one would expect much more to be mentioned in roman, jewish writings. there are lots of nobodies mentioned in the talmud that lived at the same time, but no jesus.
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ProdigalSon
I believe the Roman Empire made a God-man out of an Essene named Yehoshua Ben Yosef. The life-details had nothing to do with him but were lifted from Mithra.
It's amazing what you can pull off when 90 percent of the world is illiterate.
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TJ Curioso
For what I read, the babylonian Talmud mentions the death of Jesus.
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mind blown
Yes, I read Josephus may well be a fruad, just thought I'd throw it up anyway.
Letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ
Babylonian Talmud
Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:
The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.
Between missing books of the OT and NT:
Epistle to the Ephesians. Ephesians 3:3/Epistle from Laodicea to the Colossians and others..
Along with:
The corruption of Constantine. Their were many other books that were considered authentic NT inspired books that were read and accepted by the original church that are not included in the NT as we know it today and as one can see by the Codex Sinaiticus
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Leolaia
1) The Josephus passage is plain weird. There are many fascinating theories and observations to be made about it. Among these is the fact that it shows close literary similarities to early Christian credal statements about Jesus (http://www.textexcavation.com/anatestimonium.html), and the wording was very close to Eusebius' own phraseology. Bottom line, the present form of the text is not original to the author.
2) Pliny discusses the early Christian community worshipping Jesus; he does not offer any independent testimony about the historical Jesus. His knowledge comes from Christians.
3) Tacitus actually does talk about Jesus as a person executed in Judea under Pontius Pilate. But again, his information does not seem to come from independent Roman sources but from Christian credal statements promulgated at the time (compare Ignatius, Smyrnaeans 1:2; Trallians 9:1; Justin Martyr, Apology 1.13.3). See the above link also for parallels.
4) The Talmud is very late and polemical in its engagement with Christian claims; it is also unclear how much "Yeshu" is a composite figure of heretic figures in Judaism....there is some evidence that he draws on a Hasmonean-era 'apostate' as well.
5) Lucian satirizes the early Christian community; his knowledge of Jesus derives from his contacts with Christians.
6) It is a modern-day myth that Constantine expunged certain books from the Bible. And it is odd to cite the Codex Sinaiticus (which has books not found in the present-day NT) as evidence in support of this since this codex is widely thought to be one of the fifty Bibles commissioned by Constantine.
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mind blown
Thanx Leolala for the information.
If I'm mistaken, the question was If scholars believe in Jesus as a real person. Therefore I'm assuming since these one's spoke of him, they blieved there was such a one.
Really, it's a modern day myth Constantine expunged certain books of the bible? Maybe I read many books were left out due to a money issues for the commision of putting the canon together? Is that a myth too? I'll have to do more research....
The reason I site the Codex Sinaiticus is because with many books missing from our current version of the NT, who actually knows exactly all the historical facts of Jesus?
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mP
@Leolaia
6) It is a modern-day myth that Constantine expunged certain books from the Bible. And it is odd to cite the Codex Sinaiticus (which has books not found in the present-day NT) as evidence in support of this since this codex is widely thought to be one of the fifty Bibles commissioned by Constantine.
MP
This is simply not true. There are at least 50 other gospels that the bishops commissioned by Constantine left out. We have cases in the NT where James and possibly Jesus quote the book of Enoch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch
The book is referred to, and quoted, in Jude 14-15 :
- "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these [men], saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
- Another probable Biblical reference can be found in I Peter 3:19-20 to En 21:6.
- The book of Enoch was omitted because it has some really weird things like the watchers (or angels) having sex with birds etc. It also says the nephalim were a mile high and other rediculous nonsense.
- http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/book_of_enoch.htm
People 450-Feet Tall?
Are you really gullible enough to believe that fallen angels had physical intimacy with earthly women that produced offspring 450-feet tall? I don't think so! We read in chapter 7:12-15 of the Book of Enoch...
7:12 Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them;
7:13 When they turned themselves against men , in order to devour them;