A great resource for anyone who feels they are being railroaded by the elders.
If you have committed rape, robbed a liqour store, etc... just take your medicine, you know if you are guilty or just an apostate.
Judicial Committee Preparation
by Marvin Shilmer 21 Replies latest jw friends
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tresdecu
Marvin, I too enjoy all you post here...great contribution! Just curious were you ever an elder or higher up? Totally understand if you choose not to answer...
thanks again
TD
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Shawn10538
1. Ask the elders to wait while you get something to write on, then ask and carefully record answers to each of the following questions, including the names of who said what:
I’ve done that over the phone and they asked point blank, “Are you writing this down?” I said, yeah I just want to make sure I under… “Click.” Their hang up was THAT quick.
4. Who will be present for the hearing?
I asked that. The answer was, “Some faithful brothers that have your interests at heart. We are not allowed to tell you anything more.
5. What is the allegation? Why don’t we talk about that at the meeting. Don’t worry it’s nothing too serious. (It really was)
6. Will there be any witnesses testifying at this hearing? If so, who and what will they testify to? “We are not allowed to divulge such information.”
7. Will there be any documents presented at this hearing as evidence? If so, what are these documents, where did they come from and what do they say? “we are not at liberty to divulge any of that ionformation.”
8. Ask whether you can have copies of any evidentiary documents in advance of the hearing for preparation.
9. Will any documents of record be made of this hearing?
10. Who will make/produce the documentation?
11. Who will have access to the documents of record? Will anyone have access to documents of record that are not present during the hearing. If so, who?
12. Will this documentation contain information about my person, including my name and details discussed during the meeting?
13. Will I have the same access to any and all documentation of this meeting as does anyone else who is granted access? If not, why not? (The answer to this question will be “No”. But you should ask anyway.)
14. Will I have opportunity to object to representations made in any official documentation of the judicial hearing?
15. Can I record the meeting with a voice or video recorder? If not, why not?
16. Can I have a personal advisor/advocate of my choice present during this judicial hearing who is not part of the judicial committee but is a Watchtower appointed elder?To all those questions and any question even close to those questions. The answer is NO!
I don’t know what kind of judicial hearings you are accustomed to Marvin, but these suggestions would NEVER fly. It would just put them in a defensive mode, and they won’t budge an inch on any of them. I just can’t believe there is a judicial committee out there that would even respond to any of those suggestions. I’ve only been in on 2 and there was no give and take involved. It’s pretty much “show up and we’ll tell you about it when you get there.
I question how tried and tested these suggestions are. I wouldn’t recommend them to anyone cuz it would just get tem disfellowshipped.
Do you have any anecdotal evidence of people using these suggestions and how it all turned out for them?
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iCeltic
Have to say, this is fantastic information that will be incredibly practical and useful. Outstanding post and one of the most useful I've seen on the site to date.
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Marvin Shilmer
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I don’t know what kind of judicial hearings you are accustomed to Marvin, but these suggestions would NEVER fly. It would just put them in a defensive mode, and they won’t budge an inch on any of them. I just can’t believe there is a judicial committee out there that would even respond to any of those suggestions. I’ve only been in on 2 and there was no give and take involved. It’s pretty much “show up and we’ll tell you about it when you get there
Most elders are interested in at least an appearance of justice. The recommendations I’ve offered are not to suggest that elders will hand over information or consent to certain items. Rather, in each case it is to give elders something to think over as they begin prosecution of one of their own.
As has happened with quite a few over the years—you apparently included—when honest folks come face-to-face with acts of injustice they tend to keep thinking it over for resolution. Answering the questions posed in my recommendations lays before men multiple instances of injustice in the making.
All elders are not willing to kowtow to Watchtower regardless of their own sensibilities of right and wrong. Honest men know that tomorrow they could just as well be the victim, or someone in their family. In case an accused has at least one honest elder on their committee the recommended actions will at least force that person to think about what they are doing with an end toward justice.
On the other hand, if a set of elders is uniformly dishonest and are no more than henchmen doing Watchtower’s dirty work, then no recommendation on earth would change the inevitable.
Moreover, a lot of the time judicial committees end up deciding a case based on self-inflicted harm coming the mouth of those accused. There is no reason for individuals to do this to themselves, unless they really are guilty of some serious moral breach. Hence a primary recommendation is to keep your mouth shut until evidence is all presented.
I see no downside to my recommendations and lots of upside. A person need not be domineering bully toward elders as they ask the questions posed. In fact my recommendation would be to go about asking the questions and taking notes as respectfully as possible. If elders on a judicial committee or witnesses object to the asking of questions and the making of notes then why is everyone in the hearing in the first place? The elders are asking questions and taking notes. Right?
Is it just that no one else gets to asks questions and takes notes?
The fact of the matter is that nothing in Watchtower policy suggests that the actions I recommend are somehow to be taken as insult or disrespect, and I have not suggested presenting with insult or disrespect.
Marvin Shilmer
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Marvin Shilmer
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Just curious were you ever an elder or higher up?
Yes.
Marvin Shilmer
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sizemik
these suggestions would NEVER fly. It would just put them in a defensive mode . . . Shawn.
That's precisely what's needed. JC's gain an incredible amount of autonomy bias from meek compliance. I would endorse Martins strategy to ask anyway. If it forces them to deny certain things from you, including basic human rights, then make them do it . . . don't do it for them.
If the basic questions pertaining to the accusations are not answered prior to the JC meeting, I would additionally advocate turning up to hear the accusations ONLY. Make careful notes at your own pace, record the names of all present and ask for copies, or note down descriptions of any documentation. At the point when the accusation has been fully tabled . . . I would advise the JC that time is now required to consider the accusations and obtain private advice . . . and after asking for a continuation . . . LEAVE.
If challenged . . . simply point out that your accusers have had ample time to prepare the accusation . . . now you require the same consideration to prepare a response.
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Marvin Shilmer
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That's precisely what's needed. JC's gain an incredible amount of autonomy bias from meek compliance. I would endorse Martins strategy to ask anyway. If it forces them to deny certain things from you, including basic human rights, then make them do it . . . don't do it for them.
If the basic questions pertaining to the accusations are not answered prior to the JC meeting, I would additionally advocate turning up to hear the accusations ONLY. Make careful notes at your own pace, record the names of all present and ask for copies, or note down descriptions of any documentation. At the point when the accusation has been fully tabled . . . I would advise the JC that time is now required to consider the accusations and obtain private advice . . . and after asking for a continuation . . . LEAVE.
If challenged . . . simply point out that your accusers have had ample time to prepare the accusation . . . now you require the same consideration to prepare a response.
Can't be said any better.
Make them say what would make the average honest person want to puke. Compelling folks to verbalize what they are willing to rationalize in private makes folks think. At least it makes an honest person think! It makes them listen to what they've been saying to themselves.
And, the recommended action is fully inside Watchtower policy to ask and do. The elders are in no position to criticize any of the actions.
Marvin Shilmer
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00DAD
Some Points to Ponder:
The modern judicial hearing procedures of Jehovah's Witnesses are based on a Bible account.
It's a fairly familiar account. You'll recognize it immediately:
An individual is required to appear before numerous judges against his will. He is not allowed any representation or even just someone to accompany him simply for moral support. He is not told the charges prior to the hearing, nor is he informed what the evidence is against him or who the witnesses will be. He is outnumbered by both his accusers and the judges. No outside, independent observers are allowed to insure that his civil rights are not violated nor are there any formal, public records kept of the judicial proceedings. He stands alone.
Do you recognize this account? Does it sound familiar? As a model for modern day Judicial Hearings of Jehovah's Witnesses, who does the individual represent? Who do the judges represent? Do you think the results of that Biblical judicial proceeding were just or not? Why or why not?
Which side would you have wanted to be on in the Biblical account? Which side, if any, do you find yourself on today?
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Shawn10538
In one of my trials what worked to back them off me altogether was a letter by someone on the net called DOC Something. Doc Bob? They were drilling me and hounding me for months, then I sent them and the Society a letter on Doc Bob's site, and suddenly their whole demeanor had changed. I'll Post it.