Its Easter, Christ is Risen - Really?

by cofty 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  WTWizard

  I will offer 2 possible explanations--and, until science advances to the point where we are able to access or disprove the astral plane, both are plausible.

  (1) Jesus is totally fictitious, stolen from other gods and goddesses. Legends about the sun "dying" in winter, remaining "dead" for 3 days on the Cross of the Zodiac (or the Southern Cross, depending on which version you pick), and being resurrected were picked up by the ancients. Horus is a prime example of this--the first sun god. Jesus was simply ripped off from this, and some 20 others that were supposedly born of virgins and died on a tree or cross.

  (2) Jesus did exist. However, he was nothing more than a Jew that turned apostate by the time he was 12. He did all he could to ruin Judeo-Christianity, and got slaughtered for doing so. Then Paul and other faithful Jews (the apostles were not Gentiles at the time) wrote the story, embellishing it similar to the embellishments found in a$$embly experience stories. They invented certain miracles, and claimed that Jesus (an apostate Jew) was in fact God's Son. Then the Catholic Church, on its own or under the influence of the Jews (it matters not which) used this story to plunge the human race into the First Dark Ages. From there, the story got further corrupted.

  Now, under (1), Jesus didn't exist at all and is totally non-existent. Under (2), Jesus is dead. As there is no proof of an afterlife (and there will be no proof of one until someone invents technology to directly explore other realms outside our 3-D world), Jesus could well still be dead. And, if not, he would more likely than not have been reincarnated into something, or be awaiting a reincarnation. Again, no proof as to whether that is relatively recent (say, hundreds of years) or long-term (the next time the universe crunches and bangs). In neither case is Jesus anything more significant than anyone else, and in neither case really worthy of veneration.

  And in neither case did his death actually save anyone from anything.
• 

  still thinking

  Yeah....but what about the witnessess that never saw the body? What about what they didn't see?........................................LOL
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  cantleave

  
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  mP

  of course jesus is risen. the problem is you are completely brainwashed and have been taught to ignore the most obvious answer, the sun. read the lamguage especially the grand meta descriptions and tell anyone that is not the sun. easter is of course the spring equinox. the resurrection here is the return of the sun and warmth of spring where nature springs to life. animals are born, the cold is fading, days are now longer than nights. this is the originsl celebration. in those days ancient man always worried about the cold dead winter, waiti g for spring was an anxious wait.
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  Wizard of Oz

  It would seem to be an inescapable historical fact, that a man came to the middle east two thousand years ago, with a message of love for the human condition.

  Again inescapabe, for this he was charged, found guilty of and sentenced to death for sedition. Many stories have been told along the lines of a Chinese Whisper

  During the time of the persecution it would seem reasonable to assume, the teachings would have gone underground, if not not being spoken of at all. It has been recorded that not everyone actually died from a Roman cruxifiction, and modern medical opinion agrees that if one has certain abilities; i.e.slowing down your breathing, putting yourself in a state of trance(just as war prisoners do for themselves) etc., and even allowing for a slight spear thrust is is quite likely that many people survived.

  The man's teaching's were dead. If has also been suggested, he was ministered to in a secret place, perhaps with the Essenes and was spirited away. In Northern India there is a tomb of a man going back to that era. The locals claim it is and always has been known as "The Tomb of the Essene" Seen it on the telly..........

  I have also read a book which appears to have run away from home. It deals with the proposition that Mary Magdelange and her man, when he was well enough went off to the South of France and raised a bunch of kids, where he also died of Old Age. Sorry, can't remember more detail but it's a real place which is proud of it's heritage.

  After His Death, and in a better political climate His Teachings rose again to be suppressed at any turn by those who would have us all enslaved to another's ideals.

  And who cares what happens to the electrical energy that is in us and can never die, why can't ressurrection and reincarnation be seen as one and the same thing?

  As an aside; to me it appears something else is afoot, for if there are Twelve Disciples and one Master around whom magical acts seem to have been performed by a coven of Majik Workers, why hasn't anyone made the connection.

  Doesn't anyone believe in MAJIK anymore!!!

  @phizzy.......

  The fairies ARE in the garden mate.

  @OldGenDude....

  Luv'n'Thorts......woz
• 

  robB

  I find it interesting you leave out Paul's list of witnesses to the resurrection. The manuscript evidence points to the first century authorship. This is something that cannot be debated.

  Put yourself in the first century as an investigator. Do you have enough details to verify the claims?

  All of this takes on more meaning if you are jewish and you know anything about the prophecies concerning the messiah.

  The cartoon's point is misleading. Consider the manuscripts as affadavits, that was Luke's point in his gospel and travelogue (Acts). He gathered the details and wrote his report. How is this different from other ancient myths that include eyewitness accounts? Paul's claims were provable when recorded. How is this different from the Mormons? They had 'eyewitness' too. I don't know how they received the plates, but nothing in the book was provable when it was translated. JW's are taught to ignore details.
• 

  mP

  rob:

  I find it interesting you leave out Paul's list of witnesses to the resurrection.

  mP:

  What proof have you got that Paul actually knew Jesus. The only thing he says about Jesus is he died for us and thats about it.

  - What facts does Paul tell us about jesus life, ministry, miracles and eventual resurrection ?

  Unfortunately the evidence from his own letters are very very few. In another thread the best Tec could show was Paul mentioning James, John and Cephus and thats it. He never mentions Jesus birth, Bethlehem or any of the basic facts we know about jesus.

  If you dont believe me start reading the books or search Pauls letters for key words and you will find none. Firstly there were many messiahs, lords, saviour gods back in those days. The idea of dying for our sins or the beenfit of mankind is not unique to Jesus. Xians never tell you about the other Gods because its quite embarrassing. They dont want you to start looking. Origen a prominent church father himself admitted Jesus story is not unique, he explained it by saying that the devil simply had other cultures invent the same stories in their false religion.

  We honestly dont really know what Paul believed, he doesnt say too much about his lord or God. On the one hand he believed what we would call the OT but then he changes quite a lot about it including circumcision. Ask any Jew back then about this change and they would scream heresy straight away.

  Personally i think you will find that Paul is the first example of the Catholic Church blending other religious systems into their attempt to build the one universal religion under their control. Lets not forget the second or fourth pope was a Flavian or from the same family as Vespasian or Titus. Strange but true.

  Then again was Paul historical or was he an invention meant to introduce another leader into the xian fold. There are many similarities between Apollonius of Tyana. I find it particularly strange that Saul was renamed to Paul. Why would this be necessary except perhaps to imply Paul was Apollonius of Tyana.

  Do a few searches and you will find disturbing coincidences...

  http://truthbeknown.com/apollonius.html

  You will also find strange similarities w/ Josephus.

  http://vridar.wordpress.com/2007/04/25/the-shipwrecks-of-josephus-and-paul-part-3/

  Robert Gnuse listed 12 coincidences of content between the two. His article is “Vita Apologetica: The Lives of Josephus and Paul in Apologetic Historiography” [JSP 13.2 (2002) 151-169]. The main difference is that Josephus is travelling to Rome on behalf of god-fearing priests who have been unjustly accused and forced to plead their case before Caesar.

  1. A Roman procurator, Felix, is involved in both accounts (cf Acts 24.1-27)
  2. Jewish religious leaders are involved in both accounts (priests in Vita and Paul in Acts)
  3. Felix causes Jewish religious leaders to be imprisoned (cf Acts 24.1-27)
  4. Felix’s actions result in prisoners going to Rome (cf Acts 25.10-11)
  5. The Jewish religious leaders are unjustly accused (cf Acts 24-26)
  6. Journey to Rome is by ship (cf Acts 27.1-44)
  7. The sea journey to Rome seeks to effect justice at the imperial level to undo injustice done at the provincial level (cf Acts 24-27)
  8. The ship not only sinks (cf Acts 27.41-44)
  9. But chooses to sink in the Adriatic Sea (cf Acts 27.27)
  10. The heroes, Josephus or Paul, act with courage and provide leadership (cf Acts 27.31-38)
  11. All passengers survive (presumably in Josephus’s account) (cf Acts 27.44)
  12. Both heroes pass through Puteoli (cf Acts 28.13-14)
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  Wizard of Oz

  As an aside: Paul did not believe in a bodily resurrection either for us or Jesus. Nowhere does he mention Jesus' bodily resurrection and goes so far as to state we should also not expect one: "In the same way,our earthly bodies which die and decay are different to the bodies which we shall have when/if we come back to life again, for they will never die."

  woz
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  mP

  Woz

  Did Paul even know Jesus ? Its hard to argue that he did. Personally i believe Paul represents the first religious adoption merger of the Catholic Church. Why was Saul renamed to Paul, the rename makes no sense unless it was done to have readers think the apostle is actually another person with a similar name, such as Apollonius of Tyana. Apollonius was also a traveller throughut the empire who preached, did miracles and more. Check his travels and you notice they seem to match Pauls. Apollonius while born in Tyana actually lived in Tarsus. They would have been born inthe same time and might have been neighbours or even the same person. Personally why was Paul renamed, the I cant but help perhaps someone was trying to pretend that Paul was Apollonius with the purpose of convincing his followers to join the early xian church. We see the same with Isis and Mary, which was done to make Isis worshippers part of the RCC.
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  rebel8

  To add another option to WTWizard's post:
  
  3) Jesus did exist. However, he was nothing more than a Jew that turned apostate by the time he was 12. He did all he could to ruin Judeo-Christianity by faking miracles. They bribed soldiers to fake a crucifixion and the burial and resurrection were elaborate hoaxes. He knew his audience had an awareness of similar "resurrected after 3 days" stories so he used a familiar meme.*
  
  After years of oral history, confabulation, and adding half-true stories that happened to others, the story took on epic proportions and people began worshipping the story itself. As with many fervent beliefs, some adherents used the story as a reason to do good works, some to do evil, and the rest use it as a reason or excuse to act however they choose to act.

  Good thing is, we can all be good people and enjoy our lives without believing this story.

  ---

  *For example:

  • http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hebrew-tablet-predates-bible-on-resurrection-862065.html
  • Osiris
  • Siva
  • Persephone