by nicolaou 70 Replies latest jw friends
Nicolaou...great Hitchens clip...and very true...
Freedom of speech isn't just about hearing what we like to hear. We all loose when we silence someone because we never know what we might learn from them. Even someone we totally disagree with can have valid points to offer and food for thought.
growing thicker skin and behaving like adults?
It does smack of the schoolroom with Johnny running to teacher saying "Miss, Miss . . . Freddy said a bad word."
Some offence-taking seems a bit staged and exaggerated to be honest . . . and the debate becomes a succession of claims for the moral high ground, and the issue itself is lost in this fruitless exchange of gunfire.
Attacking the message is only the same as attacking the messenger in a child's mind. A forthright rebuttal is not a personal attack. Intelligent Adults should know the difference and respond accordingly.
I agree with what you're saying and full marks for saying it.
It's good to remember that none of us know each other's personal circumstances, and so allowance always has to be made.
That's the thing. Toleration.
surely we could make Simons life a lot easier by growing thicker skin and behaving like adults?
I'm not on ANYONE'S side! I'll listen to the lone, critical voice against concensus everytime because you never know - the 'idiot' may be right! I'll argue with him, debate him, refute him and when I know there's nothing left to say I'll conclude my time with him. It takes an awful lot to offend me, I can only recall a couple of instances in almost 12 years here where I've felt offended and that was when my family were insulted by, let's face it, strangers.
I agree with those sentiments (except that I'm on my side in an argument ;-) ). In over a decade of being on forums (9 years this one!) I've seen infighting so vicious and the admin so stressed that the board's been closed down. I think Simon has been close to throwing in the towel himself a couple of times. And it doesn't have to be that way. I, and I'm sure many others, have had to learn the hard way when it comes to dealing with obnoxious behavior directed towards us.
There are strategies to avoid the situation escalating, one of them being NOT posting an immediate response when you're angry and upset, but waiting a while until the inflammatory post can be dealt with in a calmer frame of mind. Another one is, attack the argument, NOT the person - don't be drawn into lowering yourself to your opponent's level, as seriously tempting as it may be.
I also know what you mean about feeling offended (it now takes a lot to offend me - it wasn't always so in the early days). The last time I was really offended was on another board recently. Again, it was regarding the very sensitive/emotive issue of child abuse in the Org. I have family and friends who have been affected by that and I was recounting some experiences about it. There was a poster (a JW) I'd been conversing with who was totally clueless, had made some infuriatingly ignorant comments, and when I told him my experience, he accused me of being a liar. Underneath I was livid but he wasn't going to get the satisfaction. So I told him that, due to his ignorance and insults, I wasn't going to discuss the topic any further with him, end of. He tried periodically to drag me back in, but I knew I'd lose my temper if I did so stayed resolute. We have to do that sometimes - walk away for our own good and for the dignity of the discussion. Anyway, life is stressful enough without allowing relative strangers to disturb our fragile peace.
Dear Cedars
Thanks for your private message. I'm choosing to respond on the public forums as that's where the discussion began and retreating into PM's is a bit like whispering in a room full of friends, it can cause bad feelings and suspicions. I'm respecting the privacy of your PM with just two brief quotes so that this reply makes sense to all.
You're a good bloke and more than many others here you are putting your time, effort and energies where your mouth is by producing videos, blogs and articles that many - including myself - are grateful for. I appreciate your hard work and I thank you for it.
I know you understand that activism isn't why the vast majority of JWN members stay here. Only a minority of us do that and I think we're all okay with it. What most JWN members want is support, someone who'll listen and who 'gets' them. What hope of an ex-jw finding an understanding ear in the office or shop floor? So it isn't surprising that strong bonds form here, friendships even.
I didn't "wade in over the Nathan Natas and Slimboyfat thing", I was saddened that two guys I've known for 8 and 11 years are no longer around and I made a couple of simple points about it.
You say, "It really is none of your business." Rubbish.
Now, you can choose to take this as a personal attack if you want to mate but it really isn't. Think of it as a friend pulling you up and having an honest word in your face. You need to relax man. Stop believing that everyone is 'having a go' at you - Jesus, it was the first conversation I remember having with you in the postcards thread.
No friendship worth having ever avoided disagreements and 'falling out' occasionally so believe me when I say that if you were in my neighbourhood I'd love to share a few pints with you in my local. But that doesn't mean that I'm not a little pissed off right now.
Hope you understand.
Sincerely,
Nicolaou
Ooooh....answering a private message in public....not sure of the etiquette of that, Nicolaou...not quite the thing, really....
though I can see you did it with the best of intentions.
Not cool nicolaou.
Cedars
there seems to be a nice mix of folks on here these days, far less abuse and name calling, but some mad JW apologist trolling though !
Nicolaou,
Very quickly, as time is short for me, just to pick up one point, I believe you are totally wrong where you say most people aren't here for activism but for support.
I believe people are here for a whole complex variety of reasons. Take myself. I arrived for support, but even then I felt that so much about the WT and the way it empowers some people and disenfranchises most, was very wrong. I was very hurt and confused and angry all at once. That all resolved eventually into a very rich and complex but positive mixture of receiving/giving support, seeking to expose, aiming to reform, learning, and finding out, and much much more. Activism is EXACTLY what this site is about, AND support AND the forging of friendships AND the interchange of ideas AND entertainment AND, AND, AND much much more.
So, whatever Cedars said to you in what he believed to be a private conversation...and it is extremely bad form to reply in public, a breach of good manners and trust combined, you are wrong in your assumptions about why people are here.
This is an immensely important site with some very gifted and interesting people, and the latter category includes just about everyone. It's rich and very varied and I for one have made some VERY good friends here.
And now I am late, late, as the White Rabbit said...
Nice 'knowing' you Nicolaou, ...4 in a row for one poster will surely be a record of some sort me thinks....
