Explain in a FEW word's why the 607 date is incorrect.

by XPeterX 102 Replies latest jw friends

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    Not to mention the ten tribes of Israel

    Agree Sab. There is much symbolism expressed through specific numbers and these numbers did have spiritual significance

    for the ancient Hebrews.

    Here's a bit of information to explain the time frame of the exile or captivity to Babylon.

    The Biblical history of the Exile

    In the late 7th century BCE, the kingdom of Judah was a client state of the powerful Assyrian empire. In the last decades of the century Assyria was overthrown by Babylon, an Assyrian province with a history of former glory in its own right. Egypt , fearing the sudden rise of the Neo-Babylonian empire , seized control of Assyrian territory up to the Euphrates river in Syria, but Babylon counter-attacked and in the process Josiah , the king of Judah, was killed, although the circumstances are obscure (609 BCE). Judah became a Babylonian client, but in the following years two parties formed at the court in Jerusalem: one pro-Egyptian and the other pro-Babylonian.

    In 599 BCE, the pro-Egyptian party was in power and Judah revolted against Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon laid siege to Jerusalem , [3] and Jehoiakim , the king of Judah, died in 598 BCE with the siege still under way. [4] He was succeeded by his son Jeconiah , aged either eight or eighteen. [5] The city fell about three months later, [6] on 2 Adar (March 16) 597 BCE, and Nebuchadnezzar pillaged Jerusalem and its Temple and took Jeconiah and his court and other prominent citizens (including the prophet Ezekiel ) back to Babylon. [7] Jehoiakim's brother Zedekiah was appointed king in his place, but the exiles in Babylon continued to consider Jeconiah as their Exilarch , or rightful ruler.

    Despite the strong remonstrances of Jeremiah and others of the pro-Babylonian party, Zedekiah revolted against Babylon and entered into an alliance with PharaohHophra of Egypt . Nebuchadnezzar returned, defeated the Egyptians, and again besieged Jerusalem . The city fell in 587. Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the city wall and the Temple, together with the houses of the most important citizens, and Zedekiah was blinded, and taken to Babylon, together with many others. Judah became a Babylonian province, called Yehud Medinata (Yehud being the Babylonian equivalent of the Hebrew Yehuda, or "Judah", and "medinata" the word for province), putting an end to the independent Kingdom of Judah.

    The first governor appointed by Babylon was Gedaliah, a native Judahite; he encouraged the many Jews who had fled to surrounding countries such as Moab , Ammon , Edom , to return, and took steps to return the country to prosperity. Some time afterwards, however – it is not clear when, but possibly 582 BCE – a surviving member of the royal family assassinated Gedaliah and his Babylonian advisors, prompting a rush of refugees seeking safety in Egypt. Thus by the end of the second decade of the 6th century, in addition to those who remained in Yehud (Judah), there were significant Jewish communities in Babylon and in Egypt; this was the beginning of the later numerous Jewish communities living permanently outside Judah in the Jewish Diaspora .

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    sabastious:

    Have you ever thought that maybe the 70 years was not a literal number, but rather a description of the events?

    Thing is, the Bible never mentions '70 years of exile' at all, literally or figurately. It is true that there were 70 years from the fall of Assyria's final capital, Harran, in 609BCE until the fall of Babylon in 539BCE. However, even if this were not true, the JW belief would still be wrong.

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Thing is, the Bible never mentions '70 years of exile' at all, literally or figurately. It is true that there were 70 years from the fall of Assyria's final capital, Harran, in 609BCE until the fall of Babylon in 539BCE. However, even if this were not true, the JW belief would still be wrong.

    Ah, yes. So the 70 years of Babylonian rule could then correlate to the Revelation Wild Beast's 7 heads and 10 horns (7x10). Signifying human rulership over God's people as punishment for law breaking. Apparently, worshiping inanimate objects is a big deal to the God of the Bible. The Watchtower high ups, and many of it's members, worship the machine that prints their "divine message of holy spirit."

    in·an·i·mate /in'an?mit/
    Adjective:
    1. Not alive, esp. not in the manner of animals and humans.
    2. Showing no sign of life; lifeless.

    The printing press certainly is lifeless and makes for a very bad god.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    True, it's interesting that you would mention Josiah's untimely death by Necho II. Apparently, Necho's name was dishonored after he died, possibly for being held responsible for the killing of a great King of Israel, Josiah.

    Death and succession

    Necho II died in 595 BC and was succeeded by his son, Psamtik II, as the next pharaoh of Egypt. Psamtik II, however, later removed Necho's name from almost all of his father's monuments for unknown reasons.

    2 Kings 23:29

    New International Version (NIV)

    29 While Josiah was king, Pharaoh Necho king of Egypt went up to the Euphrates River to help the king of Assyria. King Josiah marched out to meet him in battle, but Necho faced him and killed him at Megiddo.

    Regardless of the details, the Bible speaking about real kings and real battles is pretty amazing in it's own right.

    -Sab

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    Being that there were segmented parts to the captivity to Babylon, is something to note as well.

    The final destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

    The date of the edict established by Cyrus to release the Jews back to their homeland.

    The actual time frame of when the Jews did return to Jerusalem.

    As well as the time frame of the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.

    These specific dates can be chronologically dated by using the bible as well by using archaeological findings.

    The year 607 BCE. doesn't specifically fit into anywhere.

    As I mentioned before, the WTS. under J Rutherford, a lawyer not a well studied bible theologian, shifted the dates a little to hold up

    the previous date calculated by C. Russell arriving to 1914. A circumventing ploy to make the WTS. literature and teachings that more attractive

    to the public, as well a bit of a ploy to exploit the publics own ignorance of ancient biblical events.

    I guess you could say for most part, it worked as it was designed.

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    Ah, yes. So the 70 years of Babylonian rule could then correlate to the Revelation Wild Beast's 7 heads and 10 horns (7x10).

    Good catch and observation Sab. totally forgot about that myself

    Goes to show what kind of relevance numbers did have in the theological thinking of the ancient Hebrews.

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @Phizzy:

    Would you like to start [a new] thread "Why 607BCE is the true date for Jerusalem's destruction in a few words". It should be possible to post something for Dummies like me that is succinct.

    Not really. I recall once starting a thread in an attempt to help someone that had encountered an IE9 bug that had caused an interruption of the thread, but I'd rather just contribute a remark (or two!) to an existing thread and move on to the next one. I notice that both @AnnOMaly and @Witness My Fury have joined this thread, and they are two of the many dissenters with whom I've had the pleasure of exchanging posts in the past on here in connection with my belief that 607 BC harmonizes well with the Bible and with what Josephus wrote with respect to the kings of Tyre as it relates to the Neo-Babylonian kings.

    @AnnOMaly created a table in this thread that I thought to have been well done, but the data contained in it is unreliable and requires that one put their faith in it in order to believe it (which she does). I especially liked @AnnOMaly's tables in this thread and @Alleymom's tables are excellent on page 2 of this same thread, but whatever their motives were in producing such great-looking tables, they feel quite justified that there is every reason to reject 607 BC and no reason at all for anyone to accept 607 BC as the date when Solomon temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon.

    Why Ptolemy agrees with Berossus, but Josephus has a very different take on the Neo-Babylonian kings is a mystery, but the question of whether Nabopolassar ruled as king of Egypt is also a mystery? Berossus claims he did, but this doesn't seem to bother @AnnOMaly (or maybe it does!) because she will just trot out her beloved VAT 4956, which is no help to anyone but @AnnOMaly, because, like the Ptolemaic Canon, it is based on unreliable astronomical data, and @AnnOMaly is willing to put faith in this data despite the fact that the conclusions she draws therefrom contradict Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezekiel. I put my faith in the Bible. It's clear to me that @AnnOMaly doesn't trust the Bible (and, of course, this is no secret to @AnnOMaly), but I could have a beer with both she and @Alleymom is because they are as intense about what they believe as I am about why I believe the Bible. I think it would amusing to see the expressions on their faces as I continue to harp on things that Josephus wrote that I'm sure they would rather gloss over as being insignificant.

    @sabastious:

    DJ, you are overthinking it, as usual. Have you ever thought that maybe the 70 years was not a literal number, but rather a description of the events?

    I don't know how to "overthink" anything, @sabastious. I just think and, believe me, this is not a hard thing for me to do. Nothing I've ever posted to JWN is as extensive though as the charts posted by @AnnOMaly and @Alleymom, but I would suspect that you would accuse them of "overthinking" things, too. You would do well to think about giving some thought to these. If you want, you can review a thread started almost a year ago by @Witness My Fury in which only those with the ability to think would be able to comprehend, which might not be you, if after reviewing it you are still of the belief that the 70 years may not have been "a literal number, but rather a description of the events," which conclusion would definitely be a facepalm moment for me. So, no, I haven't had such a thought.

    @djeggnog

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    Research Egyptian pharaoh Apries. It is a completely separate chronology which coincides with 587, not 607.

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    in which only those with the ability to think would be able to comprehend, which might not be you,

    If you cant fight with intellectual honesty and broad based knowledge, then fight with Ad Hominem attacks.

    As usual Djeggnog you lose every intellectual joist here on this forum

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    @AnnOMaly created a table in this thread that I thought to have been well done, but the data contained in it is unreliable

    How is it unreliable? If any of the data is incorrect, you must tell me and then I can correct it.

    I especially liked @AnnOMaly's tables in this thread

    Thank you.

    and @Alleymom's tables are excellent on page 2 of this same thread

    Indeed they are.

    Why Ptolemy agrees with Berossus, but Josephus has a very different take on the Neo-Babylonian kings is a mystery, but the question of whether Nabopolassar ruled as king of Egypt is also a mystery?

    See my post #2007 on THIS THREAD.

    Burstein thought Berossus made a huge error in suggesting Nabopolassar ruled Egypt. However, Nabopolassar took over the conquered Assyrian territories which had included dominating over Egypt. See Susan E. Alcock (editor), Empires: Perspectives from Archaeology and History (2001, Cambridge University Press), pp. 374, 383. Thus it would be natural for Berossus' Babylonian source to view Necho as some 'rebellious satrap.'

    VAT 4956, ... ... like the Ptolemaic Canon, it is based on unreliable astronomical data

    How is the astronomical data unreliable? Do you have specifics?

    It's clear to me that @AnnOMaly doesn't trust the Bible

    I know you prefer to think that, but it's clear to me that you are blocking out all the times I have used the Bible's own testimony to support my arguments so you can remain prejudiced to any disconfirming biblical and secular information presented to you falsifying the WTS's chronological scheme.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit